Romney

[Coito ergo sum]

What is wrong with being an American?

Nothing is wrong with being an American. Americans are just people, with all the good and bad that goes with being human.

However, I would hate to live in America.

That would all depend on where you lived in the US, most likely.

My country is a little less wealthy, and a lot less powerful militarily. But we are also less corrupt, with a lower crime rate,

This, again, depends on where you are living. The US is about the size of Europe. Many places in Europe have similar crime rates as New Zealand. Many places in the US have similar crime rates as New Zealand.

Have you ever been to the US?

and a much, much lower homicide rate.

That depends on the area in the US, again. Some places have very low homicide rates, some very high. Most of the homicides are in larger cities.

Moreover, I have to look up the stats, but I seem to remember that New Zealand suffered from a very high crime rate in general, especially violent crimes.

We do not have idiot leaders who go marching off to war overseas.

That's an idiotic statement. You also don't have planes flying into your buildings, terrorist organizations blowing up your overseas embassies, and all sorts of other such activities. You also don't have the world relying on you to keep shipping lanes open, and middle east oil flowing at market prices, something EVERYONE relies upon.

We are prepared to instigate necessary changes (like changing to the metric system 50 years ago) without being stopped by spurious complaints that it is against some fictional freedom or against some silly amendment to the constitution.

Well, nobody objected to the metric system based on freedom or any amendment, and the things that we use the Constitution for is protect, oh, things like freedom of speech, press, religion, privacy, abortion, freedom from arbitrary state action, and other such matters which you apparently consider "spurious" and "silly." We have the metric system over here too, and many, if not most, labeling is done in both systems.

What would be silly would be considering forcing a switch to the metric system something that is worth a lot of State time and effort. That's pretty silly. Having a protection built into the legal system that the State can't keep you from voicing political opinions, or force you to give money to a church, or come into your house for no reason -- those things that you seem to consider "silly" seem to me to be about the most important things.

We have a greater set of true freedoms than the USA (no anti-terrorist national security foolishness),

Really? I'd love to examine New Zealand law. I would be willing to bet you don't have a greater set of true freedoms and that your State can do more than the US government in terms of invading your privacy, searching you and monitoring your phone calls. The US was late to the game with the Patriot Act. Most of the so-called enlightened countries were already there. Countries like the UK are far more intrusive than the US. I haven't looked it up, but if I were a bettin' man, I would say that there is nothing that the US government can do to me that the NZ government can't do to you.

and a police force that is largely unarmed and dedicated, professional, and non corrupt.

I have no idea on that note. I suspect you don't know much about the US police forces either. Most of our police are dedicated, professional and non-corrupt too. We have our instances, though.

Our government is influenced by wealthy lobby groups, but has avoided existing in the back pocket of the very wealthy. So they can create policies that are to the benefit of everyone - not just the rich. For example : we have a national health system that is better than Obamacare could ever be. (And way, way less expensive than the American system, for the same standard of care).

How do you know it's the same standard of care?

The "less expensive" allegation is normally a dicey one. The comparison of apples to apples is almost never made.

The major problem with the USA resides in its government (s), state and federal. Corruption. Kowtowing to the rich. Prepared to indulge in highly expensive and enormously damaging overseas military adventures. Massively influenced by the moronic religious right. The people are fine. But the government needs a total overhaul.

So, sure - nothing wrong with being American. But I will live here in New Zealand, thank you.

[/quote]

New Zealand is a beautiful country, what I've seen of it. Perhaps if you knew more about the US, you'd have a different view of it. The first thing I think many folks need is perspective. Making generalizations about the US because of crime in some big cities is like generalizing the entirety of Europe based on eastern Europe.

And, crime is an interesting thing -- New Zealand has twice the number of assaults per capita and twice the number of rapes per capita. And, twice the suicide rate. And, total violent crimes in New Zealand apparently exceeds the US (US is ranked 15th in violent crimes and New Zealand an astonishing 2nd). http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/New ... ates/Crime

As for corruption, the US isn't that much worse than New Zealand, and it's on par with Great Britain, France, Belgium, Ireland, Austria and that ilk, roughly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption ... tion_Index

I won't raise the health care issue, but, suffice to say that the US health care level is largely misunderstood by those commenting from other countries.

The US is in the top 10 of countries for highest quality of life: http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-te ... e-map.html - so, we can't be all that bad. And, the US is in the top 10 for highest standard of living (usually we're 5th or 6th these days after a long run of number 1).

And, the US crime rate, for what it's worth, is still going down, despite the recession: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html?_r=2 - this New Zealander seems to think that New Zealand needs to take a lesson: http://www.stephenfranks.co.nz/?p=3497

So, pick your poison, I guess.

[Tero]

Strange as it seems, local corruption is more common than federal.

[Tero]

need some entertainment here
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/slidesh ... 6482348/#1

[Blind groper]

Have you ever been to the US?

Three times to date.
However, I cannot judge the US from those visits, since I was 'cushioned' as most visitors are, by the services provided to visitors - like hotels, tour groups etc. I doubt that Americans can appreciate the nature of America from their everyday lives, either. They will just know what their immediate neighbourhood is like. My personal knowledge of America is mainly from reading, which would, of course, also be the best way for Americans to get a good overall view also.

Crime in NZ versus America.
You are correct that crime rates here are high. The reason is different. Our population is 15% indigenous polynesian - the Maori people. While the vast majority of Maori are pretty cool people - friendly, welcoming, and law abiding, most sadly there is a sizable minority who have a very, very big chip on their shoulders, and believe they have a 'right' to become predators on their fellows. The end result is that the majority of our prison population is Maori, the majority of criminal gangs are Maori, and the places where there are lots of Maori are also places where the crime rate is off the scale.

Despite this, our homicide rate per capita is a third of the USA, due to the fact that the government has wisely made firearms capable of concealment on your person totally illegal. Since a firearm assault, even without causing death, is vastly more serious than one involving just fists, violent crimes in the USA are 'more violent' than those in NZ. Our police are rated in the top three least corrupt in the world, and are most effective.

In spite of the comments on crime rates, NZ has a prison population consisting of 1 person per 500 overall, compared to 1 per 150 in the US. This is probably because we have a policy of alternative means of dealing with convicted criminals, ranging from home detention, to community service, to fines, supervision etc.

On terrorism in NZ.
Ironically, the major terrorist act performed here was by a 'friendly' government. French agents blew up the ship - the Rainbow Warrior - while tied to a berth in Auckland, and killed one person. Apart from that, we have had local crimes that are politically motivated that might be defined as terrorism. Fortunately, very few.

Nevertheless, the government is very concerned about possible foreign terrorism, and takes measures as appropriate. A few years ago, the Commonwealth Heads of Government met in Auckland, and anti-terrorism measures were strong. Just not sufficient to interfere with normal citizen's freedoms.

On health.
Again, from my reading I discovered that the American health system costs more than double, on a case by case basis, than the NZ one. For example : if a minor operation costs $10,000 here, it will cost $ 20,000 plus in the US. Nothing really strange about that. You can get even cheaper health care in India, of a surprisingly high standard.

Last point - on crime rates decreasing.
That is a phenomenon seen throughout the developed world. While various police forces will claim credit, the most likely reason is a demographic change. The percentage of young people is dropping and the percentage of older people is rising. Simply, older people commit fewer crimes.

[Seabass]

Loving freedom - all freedoms - is a sign that the person is an utter total moron.

Any society will have some freedoms and some restrictions. The alternative is chaos and anarchy. We have restrictions about how we drive on the highway, to stop us doing stupid things and killing people. Such restrictions are right and proper.

I love freedom too, but only the right freedoms. The ones that improve our lives. I love the opposite to freedom also - the restrictions, but only the right restrictions. The ones that improve our lives.

I am not American (Thank Finagle!), but if I were, Romney's rant on loving freedom would be enough to dissuade me from ever voting for the idiot.

Oh great. Another judgemental gasbag.

[Seabass]

Have you ever been to the US?

Three times to date.
However, I cannot judge the US from those visits, since I was 'cushioned' as most visitors are, by the services provided to visitors - like hotels, tour groups etc. I doubt that Americans can appreciate the nature of America from their everyday lives, either. They will just know what their immediate neighbourhood is like. My personal knowledge of America is mainly from reading, which would, of course, also be the best way for Americans to get a good overall view also.

Crime in NZ versus America.
You are correct that crime rates here are high. The reason is different. Our population is 15% indigenous polynesian - the Maori people. While the vast majority of Maori are pretty cool people - friendly, welcoming, and law abiding, most sadly there is a sizable minority who have a very, very big chip on their shoulders, and believe they have a 'right' to become predators on their fellows. The end result is that the majority of our prison population is Maori, the majority of criminal gangs are Maori, and the places where there are lots of Maori are also places where the crime rate is off the scale.

Despite this, our homicide rate per capita is a third of the USA, due to the fact that the government has wisely made firearms capable of concealment on your person totally illegal. Since a firearm assault, even without causing death, is vastly more serious than one involving just fists, violent crimes in the USA are 'more violent' than those in NZ. Our police are rated in the top three least corrupt in the world, and are most effective.

In spite of the comments on crime rates, NZ has a prison population consisting of 1 person per 500 overall, compared to 1 per 150 in the US. This is probably because we have a policy of alternative means of dealing with convicted criminals, ranging from home detention, to community service, to fines, supervision etc.

On terrorism in NZ.
Ironically, the major terrorist act performed here was by a 'friendly' government. French agents blew up the ship - the Rainbow Warrior - while tied to a berth in Auckland, and killed one person. Apart from that, we have had local crimes that are politically motivated that might be defined as terrorism. Fortunately, very few.

Nevertheless, the government is very concerned about possible foreign terrorism, and takes measures as appropriate. A few years ago, the Commonwealth Heads of Government met in Auckland, and anti-terrorism measures were strong. Just not sufficient to interfere with normal citizen's freedoms.

On health.
Again, from my reading I discovered that the American health system costs more than double, on a case by case basis, than the NZ one. For example : if a minor operation costs $10,000 here, it will cost $ 20,000 plus in the US. Nothing really strange about that. You can get even cheaper health care in India, of a surprisingly high standard.

Last point - on crime rates decreasing.
That is a phenomenon seen throughout the developed world. While various police forces will claim credit, the most likely reason is a demographic change. The percentage of young people is dropping and the percentage of older people is rising. Simply, older people commit fewer crimes.

So you're going to dump all your crime stats off on the Maori? Nice! There's a racist here named Tyrannical who likes to dump all our crime stats off on African Americans. You two should hang out.

[Blind groper]

So you're going to dump all your crime stats off on the Maori? Nice! There's a racist here named Tyrannical who likes to dump all our crime stats off on African Americans. You two should hang out.

Who is a judgmental gasbag now?

My comments are based on hard data. Easy to find if you look up crimes stats. Is a concept racist if it is demonstrably shown to be correct using hard data?

[Blind groper]

To follow up on my last comment, I quote : http://www.corrections.govt.nz/__data/a ... system.pdf

Title of government report :

"Over-representation of Māori in the criminal justice system
An exploratory report"


and I quote from the introduction.

"Relative to their numbers in the general population, Māori are over-represented at
every stage of the criminal justice process. Though forming just 12.5% of the general
population aged 15 and over1, 42% of all criminal apprehensions involve a person
identifying as Māori, as do 50% of all persons in prison. For Māori women, the
picture is even more acute: they comprise around 60% of the female prison
population.
The true scale of Māori over-representation is greater than a superficial reading of
such figures tends to convey. For example, with respect to the prison population, the
rate of imprisonment for this country’s non-Māori population is around 100 per
100,000. If that rate applied to Māori also, the number of Māori in prison at any one
time would be no more than 650. There are however currently 4000 Māori in prison -
six times the number one might otherwise expect."

So again I put the question :

"Is it racist to report something that is factually and scientifically correct?"

Nor do I believe that Maori as a whole are somehow criminal or 'inferior' in any respect. My personal view is that the high representation of Maori as criminals is due to cultural factors - not any factor related to genetics, or anything that can be blamed on their racial make up.

[Seabass]

Lol. You can't just conveniently exclude your nation's highest crime group from the data to make your national crime stats look better. You don't think other countries have groups like that?

If we exclude African Americans and Hispanics, the U.S. stats clean up nicely as well. But that's cheating. And/or scapegoating.

[Drewish]

It's the damn Irish I tell ya! Mitt is secretly code for Mick! He serves the secret Mormon pope! I've had far too much to drink!

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'll take special pleading for $500, Alex.

[Blind groper]

Lol. You can't just conveniently exclude your nation's highest crime group from the data to make your national crime stats look better. You don't think other countries have groups like that?

If we exclude African Americans and Hispanics, the U.S. stats clean up nicely as well. But that's cheating. And/or scapegoating.

I am not trying to do that . My intention was a simple explanation.

Removing Hispanic and African Americans from US stats would indeed help your crime stats. However, I doubt it would make that big a difference to your homicide stats which are so much higher than any other OECD country that even halving them would still leave the US in the worst position.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Lol. You can't just conveniently exclude your nation's highest crime group from the data to make your national crime stats look better. You don't think other countries have groups like that?

If we exclude African Americans and Hispanics, the U.S. stats clean up nicely as well. But that's cheating. And/or scapegoating.

I am not trying to do that . My intention was a simple explanation.

Removing Hispanic and African Americans from US stats would indeed help your crime stats. However, I doubt it would make that big a difference to your homicide stats which are so much higher than any other OECD country that even halving them would still leave the US in the worst position.

On a per capita basis, this isn't correct. And if you're arguing sheer numbers, of course we're going to dwarf most nations ... just as we do most nations in population.

[Blind groper]

On a per capita basis, this isn't correct.

Depends who you are comparing yourself with. My own words were "compared to other OECD countries." If you want to compare America with Russia, Afghanistan, or Colombia, you are correct.

However, if you are comparing apples with apples, a so-called advanced western nation with other advanced western nations, then you are not correct. Even cutting the US homicide rate in half will still leave it with a massively greater rate than any other OECD country.

[Tyrannical]

Lol. You can't just conveniently exclude your nation's highest crime group from the data to make your national crime stats look better. You don't think other countries have groups like that?

If we exclude African Americans and Hispanics, the U.S. stats clean up nicely as well. But that's cheating. And/or scapegoating.

Scapegoating is the practice of singling out any party for unmerited negative treatment.

http://ag.ca.gov/cjsc/publications/homi ... rrests.pdf

California in 2005 (population)
Whites 43%
Blacks 6.7%
Hispanic 35.9%
Other 14.4%

California in 2005 (homicide arrests)
Whites 19.7%
Blacks 24.9%
Hispanic 48.4%
Other 7.0%

The Hispanic rate is about three times the White rate, and the Black rate over nine times the White rate for homicide arrests.