Was There A First Cause?

[Atheist-Lite]

Some say it all began in a bang and nothing much happened before but did it? Maybe the universe is cyclic and the big bang was just the latest orgasm and you know how each one makes you forget all the others? Put another way if you push everything chaotic on earths surface into a well ordered point the size of the Isle of White. Like noahs ark in minature and placing all the cars in one big warehouse and all the fish in another. You'd have the impression when you let the fish go etc that it all began with the Isle of White, but it wouldn't have, would it?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Cars in one warehouse, fish in another... OK - got that.

But where do you put all of the shoes and paperclips? I really don't think you've thought this through.

[Atheist-Lite]

Cars in one warehouse, fish in another... OK - got that.

But where do you put all of the shoes and paperclips? I really don't think you've thought this through.

Makes you think don't it? Once you start reversing universal entropy these kinds of questions are inevitable.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Cars in one warehouse, fish in another... OK - got that.

But where do you put all of the shoes and paperclips? I really don't think you've thought this through.

Makes you think don't it? Once you start reversing universal entropy these kinds of questions are inevitable.

Good job it's so hard to do then, in that case.

[Atheist-Lite]

Cars in one warehouse, fish in another... OK - got that.

But where do you put all of the shoes and paperclips? I really don't think you've thought this through.

Makes you think don't it? Once you start reversing universal entropy these kinds of questions are inevitable.

Good job it's so hard to do then, in that case.

It seems to be getting easier all the time around here. If Ipads ever start to expand into space the universe could be in serious trouble. Then maybe something like that happened before anyway?

[Audley Strange]

You're taking the phantom time hypothesis to it's extreme then?

[Atheist-Lite]

You're taking the phantom time hypothesis to it's extreme then?

No choice. I've got a schedule to keep.

[Coito ergo sum]

Some say it all began in a bang and nothing much happened before but did it? Maybe the universe is cyclic and the big bang was just the latest orgasm and you know how each one makes you forget all the others? Put another way if you push everything chaotic on earths surface into a well ordered point the size of the Isle of White. Like noahs ark in minature and placing all the cars in one big warehouse and all the fish in another. You'd have the impression when you let the fish go etc that it all began with the Isle of White, but it wouldn't have, would it?

It's causes all the way down.

[Coito ergo sum]

The problem I've always had with positing a "first" cause is that at the point pre-space-time of this supposed first cause, there was no space and there was no time, so there was no order of cause and effect, so there was no "first." It fails of its own weight.

I find it satisfying enough to say that everything happens in the universe according to the laws of nature and natural processes, and that there doesn't appear to be reason to suppose that some sort of natural process occurred when the forces in the universe were unified, and when there was no space time. I envision it more as if whatever "existed" prior to the point in time as far back as we can measure or theorize was part of overall existence and operated according to some set of natural laws and processes. Those may have been different than what we have now, and are theorized convincingly to have been completely different - the unified forces and all and the lack of any space-time - but, they weren't "nothing" - they were "something else." It's always been "something else," and the only constant is change.

There is no such thing as nothing, so something didn't come from nothing. Something came from something else.

[mistermack]

The conundrum is, can something come from nothing?
The religious argument is that this is impossible. Only nothing comes from nothing.
Therefore, there must have been a first cause, outside of space and time, and that was god.

But I've never had an answer to the big question. What did god make the Universe OUT OF?
There are two basic possibilities. He made it out of SOMETHING, or NOTHING.

If he made it out of something, then you don't need a god. Something became something else.
If he made it out of nothing, then something CAN come from nothing after all, so you don't need a god.

So it boils down to "something cannot come from nothing, but if it did, god did it".
It's actually the old problem of infinity all over again. If you start with nothing, and something appears, then you have an increase of INFINITE proportion. Something is INFINITELY bigger than nothing.

So it's the old religious trick. Throw in an apparent infinity, point out that an infinity is impossible, and conclude that only a god can fill that gap in our knowledge.


The only other possibility is a cyclic universe. But that doesn't answer anything. How did THAT come about?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Imagine the Big Bang was "this side" of a black hole. The "other side" would be forever out of our reach.

[Tero]

What do you mean how did the cyclic universe come about? How dare you challenge it, it's bigger than you, and its dad will beat your dad.

[mistermack]

Imagine the Big Bang was "this side" of a black hole. The "other side" would be forever out of our reach.

Couldn't you go round? Black holes are only little.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Imagine the Big Bang was "this side" of a black hole. The "other side" would be forever out of our reach.

Couldn't you go round? Black holes are only little.

Go around what, why and where?

[mistermack]

Imagine the Big Bang was "this side" of a black hole. The "other side" would be forever out of our reach.

Couldn't you go round? Black holes are only little.

Go around what, why and where?

Go round the black hole, obviously because your sat-nav directed you, and obviously, to your destination.