U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

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MrJonno
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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by MrJonno » Wed May 18, 2011 11:15 am

I've not met a socialist yet who can provide a well-reasoned, rational, morally supportable argument justifying enslaving the productive class to the needs and desires of the dependent class.
Moral and rational are two very different things.

Rational is too many sick people damage economic productivity and tend to start revolutions which is very messy for all involved

Morals only really apply in the context of being part of society so not really applicable to libertarianism.

You also start with the assumption that someone has the right to be productive without paying taxes at a level deemed by the society you live in ( you don't)

Not to mention the assumption that being a farmer counts as being part of the productive class (well things are obviously made but not at a profit)
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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:50 pm

Obamacare likely will be appealed to the US Supreme Court in November - http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/64475.html

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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Seth » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:55 pm

MrJonno wrote:
I've not met a socialist yet who can provide a well-reasoned, rational, morally supportable argument justifying enslaving the productive class to the needs and desires of the dependent class.
Moral and rational are two very different things.
Not really, if it's irrational, it can't be moral, and if it's immoral it can't be rational.
Rational is too many sick people damage economic productivity and tend to start revolutions which is very messy for all involved
What do you mean by "too many sick people?" In the US, there are very few "sick people" who cannot receive care, certainly not enough to affect economic productivity. In fact, the eco-weenies are constantly carping that we have too many people on the planet and that THAT is "damaging economic productivity," the implicit argument being that a significant reduction in the population would be beneficial to both the environment and the economy.

And they aren't necessarily wrong. The dependent class are the very largest drain on the economy, so why would we want to prolong their lives using taxpayer funds when it would be beneficial for everyone else for them to die off more quickly?

The point I'm making is that the universal health care argument is NOT BASED on economics in any way, it merely abuses economics and uses it as a fallacious stalking-horse for it's true agenda, which is the overall Socialist agenda of eating the rich because the dependent class is jealous and envious. It's nothing more than class warfare right out of Marx's playbook, and has no legitimate or rational connection to improving the economy, because socialism is all about factually DESTROYING the economy in order to achieve asinine and purile notions of "fairness" and "egalitarianism."
Morals only really apply in the context of being part of society so not really applicable to libertarianism.
How would you know? You're so fucking ignorant of Libertarianism that you're unqualified to even think about it.
You also start with the assumption that someone has the right to be productive without paying taxes at a level deemed by the society you live in ( you don't)
Liar. I've never made such a claim. The only claim I've ever made is that redistributive taxation that does nothing more than transfer wealth from one individual to another is illegitimate, not that taxes per se are illegitimate, and you fucking well know it.
Not to mention the assumption that being a farmer counts as being part of the productive class (well things are obviously made but not at a profit)
You like eating? Thank a farmer.

Only true microcephalic idiots fail to understand the connection between farmers producing food and their ability to get a cheeseburger or a salad. Without farmers, there is no civilization because everybody starves. You personally are utterly dependent upon the productive capacity of farmers, and would starve to death within 30 days if we all decided to tell you to go fuck yourself and quit growing crops. So would 98 percent of the rest of the population of the planet.
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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:38 pm

Seth wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
I've not met a socialist yet who can provide a well-reasoned, rational, morally supportable argument justifying enslaving the productive class to the needs and desires of the dependent class.
Moral and rational are two very different things.
Not really, if it's irrational, it can't be moral, and if it's immoral it can't be rational.
That may be your definition of moral, but it's not a generally applicable one. Lots of human emotions are irrational and they are plenty moral in most people's views. Whether something is moral is a purely subjective value judgment on a thing or a phenomenon. There is no requirement that morality be rational unless a particular individual defines morality that way. It's just as possible to define morality as including only the irrational. Most folks wouldn't agree, but morality is purely subjective, so all that can be said is that most people think X is moral, or most people think Y is immoral, or vice versa.
Seth wrote:
The point I'm making is that the universal health care argument is NOT BASED on economics in any way, it merely abuses economics and uses it as a fallacious stalking-horse for it's true agenda, which is the overall Socialist agenda of eating the rich because the dependent class is jealous and envious. It's nothing more than class warfare right out of Marx's playbook, and has no legitimate or rational connection to improving the economy, because socialism is all about factually DESTROYING the economy in order to achieve asinine and purile notions of "fairness" and "egalitarianism."
I agree that universal healthcare is not about economics. It's about paying for healthcare for people who supposedly otherwise couldn't afford it. The sales pitch is that everyone will get all the healthcare they need, and they won't have to pay for it. It will just be another government expense that people pay for based on the taxes they pay. It can work for a time, but it has its drawbacks. The decision point is really whether those drawbacks are more tolerable than the drawbacks one sees in a private healthcare system.
Seth wrote:
Morals only really apply in the context of being part of society so not really applicable to libertarianism.
How would you know? You're so fucking ignorant of Libertarianism that you're unqualified to even think about it.
I completely disagree with the statement that morals only really apply in the context of being part of a society. That's fucking bullshit, complete and utter. And, morals are just as applicable to libertarianism as it is to socialism or any other ism. Where this idea comes from that libertarianism means "amoral" or "immoral" is beyond me. The fact that individuals are generally good and are capable of being independent moral actors is a basic underpinning of libertarianism.
Seth wrote:
Not to mention the assumption that being a farmer counts as being part of the productive class (well things are obviously made but not at a profit)
You like eating? Thank a farmer.

Only true microcephalic idiots fail to understand the connection between farmers producing food and their ability to get a cheeseburger or a salad. Without farmers, there is no civilization because everybody starves. You personally are utterly dependent upon the productive capacity of farmers, and would starve to death within 30 days if we all decided to tell you to go fuck yourself and quit growing crops. So would 98 percent of the rest of the population of the planet.
That's roughly true. If farmers stopped growing crops, the vast majority of the population of the US would die, and the US government would collapse. The entire country would break apart into different kingdoms in no time, and people would immediately go local. There would not be, however, sufficient capacity to grow food for everyone in the near term, so people would starve, and they would kill each other for food. Eventually a new equilibrium would develop, with a much lower population, until things centralized again.

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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Seth » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:24 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Seth wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
I've not met a socialist yet who can provide a well-reasoned, rational, morally supportable argument justifying enslaving the productive class to the needs and desires of the dependent class.
Moral and rational are two very different things.
Not really, if it's irrational, it can't be moral, and if it's immoral it can't be rational.
That may be your definition of moral, but it's not a generally applicable one. Lots of human emotions are irrational and they are plenty moral in most people's views.

Whether something is moral is a purely subjective value judgment on a thing or a phenomenon. There is no requirement that morality be rational unless a particular individual defines morality that way. It's just as possible to define morality as including only the irrational. Most folks wouldn't agree, but morality is purely subjective, so all that can be said is that most people think X is moral, or most people think Y is immoral, or vice versa.
Well, yes, moral relativism and situational ethics are rather widespread, but that doesn't really impeach the notion of morality or ethics with some sort of durable and universal meaning. If it did, scholars and philosophers wouldn't have been arguing about it for a few thousand years.
Seth wrote:
The point I'm making is that the universal health care argument is NOT BASED on economics in any way, it merely abuses economics and uses it as a fallacious stalking-horse for it's true agenda, which is the overall Socialist agenda of eating the rich because the dependent class is jealous and envious. It's nothing more than class warfare right out of Marx's playbook, and has no legitimate or rational connection to improving the economy, because socialism is all about factually DESTROYING the economy in order to achieve asinine and purile notions of "fairness" and "egalitarianism."
I agree that universal healthcare is not about economics. It's about paying for healthcare for people who supposedly otherwise couldn't afford it. The sales pitch is that everyone will get all the healthcare they need, and they won't have to pay for it. It will just be another government expense that people pay for based on the taxes they pay. It can work for a time, but it has its drawbacks. The decision point is really whether those drawbacks are more tolerable than the drawbacks one sees in a private healthcare system.
And the problem with Obamacare is that we could far better afford to give those who truly CANNOT obtain health care (or insurance) for free, all 8 million of them who are entitled to it (not counting the illegal aliens who have no right to sponge off our system), than we can afford the massive government meddling with EVERYONE'S health care and insurance that is the core of Obamacare. You see, Obamacare is NOT about getting health care to those who cannot afford it, it's actually about the Progressives taking over control of one-sixth of the US economy and exercising immense and intrusive power over the individual health care decision making of the public in order to advance the Progressive agenda of the Executive Administrative State where professional, unelected bureaucrats manage our lives as THEY see fit, because they think they are smarter than everyone else.
Seth wrote:
Morals only really apply in the context of being part of society so not really applicable to libertarianism.
How would you know? You're so fucking ignorant of Libertarianism that you're unqualified to even think about it.
I completely disagree with the statement that morals only really apply in the context of being part of a society. That's fucking bullshit, complete and utter. And, morals are just as applicable to libertarianism as it is to socialism or any other ism. Where this idea comes from that libertarianism means "amoral" or "immoral" is beyond me. The fact that individuals are generally good and are capable of being independent moral actors is a basic underpinning of libertarianism.
Indeed. But Socialists like to use the Alinsky Big Lie model in their argumentation, wherein they don't just erect strawmen, they just make up their version of Libertarianism out of whole cloth and try to pass it off as the truth, which it literally never is. Nine One Four was a master at the Alinsky Big Lie techniques, and Gawdzilla and MrJonno are his acolytes, though not nearly as skilled.

And it's easy to see that it's all mendacity and mindless hatred at work because they keep repeating the same old lies even after it's been carefully explained to them how they are completely wrong and are fabricating a deliberately false image of Libertarianism to use as their punching bag. They are so small-minded and petty that they are simply incapable of engaging in an honest debate about the merits and demerits of Libertarianism and Socialism because Socialism fails utterly at serving the interests of individual liberty and happiness, and Libertarianism does, and they have absolutely no way to refute that fact, so they always descend to insults, personal attacks, and fallacious and mendacious mischaracterizations as their only arguments.
Seth wrote:
Not to mention the assumption that being a farmer counts as being part of the productive class (well things are obviously made but not at a profit)
You like eating? Thank a farmer.

Only true microcephalic idiots fail to understand the connection between farmers producing food and their ability to get a cheeseburger or a salad. Without farmers, there is no civilization because everybody starves. You personally are utterly dependent upon the productive capacity of farmers, and would starve to death within 30 days if we all decided to tell you to go fuck yourself and quit growing crops. So would 98 percent of the rest of the population of the planet.
That's roughly true. If farmers stopped growing crops, the vast majority of the population of the US would die, and the US government would collapse. The entire country would break apart into different kingdoms in no time, and people would immediately go local. There would not be, however, sufficient capacity to grow food for everyone in the near term, so people would starve, and they would kill each other for food. Eventually a new equilibrium would develop, with a much lower population, until things centralized again.
Yup. And the farmers would be the center of everybody's universe, because only they have the knowledge and skill to keep everyone else alive.

But trust the Netwits to fail to understand such a simple fact as "hamburgers don't come from McDonalds."
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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Tero » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:48 am

What does healthcare have to do with economy, Seth? Them sick people can't work anyway. If they are rich, they have time to be sick.

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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Seth » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:05 am

Tero wrote:What does healthcare have to do with economy, Seth? Them sick people can't work anyway. If they are rich, they have time to be sick.
Very little, actually, and that's why it's unnecessary to tax everyone to provide it to the dependent class.
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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:02 pm

Seth wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Seth wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
I've not met a socialist yet who can provide a well-reasoned, rational, morally supportable argument justifying enslaving the productive class to the needs and desires of the dependent class.
Moral and rational are two very different things.
Not really, if it's irrational, it can't be moral, and if it's immoral it can't be rational.
That may be your definition of moral, but it's not a generally applicable one. Lots of human emotions are irrational and they are plenty moral in most people's views.

Whether something is moral is a purely subjective value judgment on a thing or a phenomenon. There is no requirement that morality be rational unless a particular individual defines morality that way. It's just as possible to define morality as including only the irrational. Most folks wouldn't agree, but morality is purely subjective, so all that can be said is that most people think X is moral, or most people think Y is immoral, or vice versa.
Well, yes, moral relativism and situational ethics are rather widespread, but that doesn't really impeach the notion of morality or ethics with some sort of durable and universal meaning. If it did, scholars and philosophers wouldn't have been arguing about it for a few thousand years.
There is no morality or ethics that is universal. The advance of knowledge and history has shown that. Slavery was once moral in most places. Human sacrifice was once more in some or even most places. Even rape was once moral in some places.

Whatever "notions" are widespread - it is simply a fact that there is no such thing as a universal morality. If you think there is, give me one example of a universal moral value.
Seth wrote:
The point I'm making is that the universal health care argument is NOT BASED on economics in any way, it merely abuses economics and uses it as a fallacious stalking-horse for it's true agenda, which is the overall Socialist agenda of eating the rich because the dependent class is jealous and envious. It's nothing more than class warfare right out of Marx's playbook, and has no legitimate or rational connection to improving the economy, because socialism is all about factually DESTROYING the economy in order to achieve asinine and purile notions of "fairness" and "egalitarianism."
I agree that universal healthcare is not about economics. It's about paying for healthcare for people who supposedly otherwise couldn't afford it. The sales pitch is that everyone will get all the healthcare they need, and they won't have to pay for it. It will just be another government expense that people pay for based on the taxes they pay. It can work for a time, but it has its drawbacks. The decision point is really whether those drawbacks are more tolerable than the drawbacks one sees in a private healthcare system.
And the problem with Obamacare is that we could far better afford to give those who truly CANNOT obtain health care (or insurance) for free, all 8 million of them who are entitled to it (not counting the illegal aliens who have no right to sponge off our system), than we can afford the massive government meddling with EVERYONE'S health care and insurance that is the core of Obamacare. You see, Obamacare is NOT about getting health care to those who cannot afford it, it's actually about the Progressives taking over control of one-sixth of the US economy and exercising immense and intrusive power over the individual health care decision making of the public in order to advance the Progressive agenda of the Executive Administrative State where professional, unelected bureaucrats manage our lives as THEY see fit, because they think they are smarter than everyone else.[/quote]

Agreed, and Obamacare is not universal health care. It's a mandatory insurance purchasing requirement with subsidies to those who are deemed to not be able to afford it, and which requires those who are deemed to be able to afford it to purchase it whether they like it or not.

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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:24 pm

Reporting from Washington—
The Supreme Court's conservative justices Tuesday laid into the requirement in the Obama administration's healthcare law that Americans have health insurance, as the court began a much-anticipated second day of arguments on the controversial legislation.

Even before the administration's top lawyer could get three minutes into his defense of the mandate, some justices accused the government of pushing for excessive authority to require Americans to buy anything.

"Are there any limits," asked Justice Anthony Kennedy, one of three conservative justices whose votes are seen as crucial to the fate of the unprecedented insurance mandate.

Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. suggested that the government might require Americans to buy cellphones to be ready for emergencies. And Justice Antonin Scalia asked if the government might require Americans to buy broccoli or automobiles.

"If the government can do this, what else can it ... do?” Scalia asked.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la ... 3592.story

I listened to some of the oral arguments yesterday. Yesterday was pretty dry, and all about minutia of jurisdictional arguments and whatnot. Today's arguments appear to be more interesting.

The basic gist of this case, for those unfamiliar, is that some folks have challenged Obamacare claiming that it is unconstitutional. The crux of the case is whether the "must buy" provision of the law is constitutional. The law is based on the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution which allows the Congress to make laws which regulate interstate commerce (Commerce among the several states). This is, however, the first time Congress has mandated that people purchase a commercial product.

Under the US system, it is a little different than in most other countries because the federal government, the US government, is constitutionally a "limited" government, meaning that it has a limited area of operations that are supposed to be set forth in the Constitution itself. Basically, that means that if the Congress is going to pass a law, it must fall under one of the "delegated powers" listed in Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution (google it if you're interested). That was done in order to separate powers among the States and the Federal Government, so that power is not concentrated too much.

The reason this is an issue is because they wanted to find a way to pass Obamacare without having to admit that it is a tax. The law could have been that the federal government will provide heath care services or will raise people's taxes to pay for healthcare. But, of course, more than half of the population would have been against that level of tax increase. So, what they did was set it up that you would be required to go out on the open market and buy health insurance. So, it's not a tax, but a mandated purchase (either way, you're out the money). And, then if you don't buy the insurance, then they sock you with a penalty when you file your tax returns.

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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Ian » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:32 pm

An interesting political analysis of the case by one of my favorite websites, electoral-vote.com:
Lose to Win?

Yesterday the Supreme Court took up the case of whether all or part of the Affordable Care Act passed by Congress 2 years ago is constitutional. Twenty six states, all with Republican Attorneys General or governors, have filed suit claiming it is unconstitutional. The great irony of these suits is that the whole idea was not invented by President Obama (ObamaCare) or even Mitt Romney (RomneyCare). It's origin goes back to President Richard Nixon, who saw that many people did not have adequate health care and wanted a solution, albeit a Republican solution. He asked the extremely conservative Heritage Foundation to think of a solution and they did: make everyone buy insurance from a private company, that is, an individual mandate. For decades, this was the Republican response to Democratic attempts to expand Medicare to cover everyone. Only after Obama pushed through NixonCare did the Republicans begin objecting to what was, in reality, their own plan.

On the face of it, the health industry constitutes about 18% of GDP and operates in all states, so there is little doubt that Congress can regulate the industry under the clause of the constitution giving Congress the power to regulate commerce among the states. What is contested, however, is whether Congress has the power to force individuals to buy a product (health insurance) from a private company or face a fine. Although Nixon never got the plan passed, he certainly never doubted its constitutionality, but times have changed, as has the Republican Party.

There are precedents all over the map concerning this. First, RomneyCare forces residents of Massachusetts to buy health insurance or pay a fine and this law has never been successfully challenged. However, some people argue that while the states can force people to buy insurance or wear seat belts or eat broccoli, the federal government cannot. Other people argue that since caring for uninsured people costs the country about $116 billion a year in medical costs, and these costs are foisted indirectly on everyone, both through taxes that pick up some of the bills and higher insurance premiums that pick up the rest, then the federal government's attempt to push the costs back to the people generating them surely falls under the heading regulating interstate commerce. Nevertheless, many people strongly object to the federal government's ordering them to do anything, hence the lawsuits.

A precedent that may weigh heavily on some justices is Gonzales v. Raich (2005). In this case, the Supreme Court decided that the constitution's commerce clause gives Congress the power to prohibit people from growing medicinal marijuana for their own personal use, even in states (e.g., California) where such production is legal. Many legal experts have said that if growing a product that is not part of any commerce, (i.e., is not for sale anywhere), is interstate commerce, then surely regulating 18% of the economy is within Congress' power to regulate commerce as well.

The Court could punt on making a decision at all now by declaring the penalty for not being insured to be a tax and then using an 1867 law saying that no one can bring suit about a tax until they have actually paid it, something that no one will be required to do until April 15, 2015. However, initial questioning from the justices yesterday seems to indicate that they do not consider the penalty to be a tax and do not consider the 1867 law applicable here. Their reasoning seems to be that the primary goal of a tax is to raise revenue and that is surely not the case here.

Ultimately, the justices could do any of several things. They could strike down the entire law and tell Congress to go do its homework better or they could strike down just the individual mandate and leave the rest intact. In the latter case, if the provision prohibiting insurance companies from refusing to insure people with preexisting conditions is maintained, large numbers of people will undoubtedly refrain from buying insurance until they are seriously ill, in which case the pool of people paying premiums will contain disproportionately many sick people and premiums will skyrocket. In fact, under these conditions, many insurance companies may just decide to get out of the health insurance business altogether, leading to a complete meltdown of the system.

If the entire health insurance system collapses, Congress will come under enormous pressure to do something. With an individual mandate impossible, its options will be limited. One choice would be to do nothing and continue to take the heat. A second (but unlikely) choice is full socialized medicine, which the U.S. already has in the form of the Veterans Administration, where the government owns and runs the hospitals and the doctors are government employees. Congress could simply pass a law allowing everyone to get free care at a (hugely expanded) V.A. hospital system and then raise taxes to pay for it.

Another option would be socialized insurance (like Canada has) by allowing everyone to buy into Medicare, but keeping the hospitals and doctors private. Only the insurance companies would be eliminated.

A final--and draconian--option would be to let people choose to buy or not buy insurance, as they prefer, but repeal the law saying that hospitals must provide emergency care to anyone who shows up. In this scenario, when an uninsured person showed up at an emergency room, the first question following the one about insurance would be: "Visa or MasterCard?" People who didn't have insurance and couldn't pay would simply be turned away as a consequence of their own decision not to be insured. It probably wouldn't take too many news stories about uninsured people dying inside or just outside hospitals before most people got the word that having insurance was a good idea. A variant of this version would be for hospitals to treat uninsured children but not adults. Still another variant would be to let people who opted out of insurance to later announce they wanted back in, but make them wait several years before getting it, forcing them to cover their own bills in the interim.

If the Court says the law is constitutional except for the penalty, Congress could (but won't) restructure it as an incentive by adding two lines near the end of form 1040.

44a. Add your tax from line 44 to $700 (health tax) and write it here.
44b. If you have health insurance, subtract your $700 health insurance credit from line 44a and write it here.
So by making everyone pay the tax and then offering an equal credit for people who have insurance, it no longer becomes a mandate to get insurance, but you get a credit for it if you have it. The tax code is riddled with optional credits, including lines 47 through 53 on form 1040 and dozens of others on different forms. There is no doubt that Congress can offer deductions or credits for anything it deems worthy. In fact, taking the tax credit route might have been better from the start but it would have involved a tax increase for everyone, which probably would have made it harder to swallow.

Putting aside for the moment the health consequences of the Supreme Court's decision, let us look at the political aspects. It is well known that the justices read newspapers and watch television. They know this issue is very partisan. Chief Justice John Roberts, in particular, is known to be concerned about having the public respect the Court. A 5-4 decision striking down all or part of the ACA, with all the Republican appointees voting as a bloc to kill the law and all the Democratic appointees voting as a bloc to sustain it, would make the Court look extremely partisan, and not at all like an umpire, just calling balls and strikes as he has put it before. Respect for the Court would undoubtedly hit an all-time low, and Roberts has to factor this consideration into his vote.

Another issue that everyone is aware of is how the decision, probably to be handed down in June, will affect the 2012 elections. Ironically, this is where the loser will probably win. If the Court strikes down the mandate or the whole law, Democrats will be incensed at judicial activism and redouble their efforts to make sure Obama is reelected so he gets to fill any Supreme Court vacancies that come up in the next four years. Considering Justice Ginsburg's age and health, her possible retirement (or death) in the next 4 years has to be taken into account. Furthermore, Republicans will relax, since they will no longer have to elect Romney to sign a law repealing the ACA: it will be already gone. Thus a clear decision to kill the law will help the Democrats.

The reverse is also true. If the Court says Congress was within its authority to pass the law, the only way for the Republicans to get rid of it is to take control of the White House, the House, and 60 seats in the senate. The Republican base will move heaven and earth to achieve these goals.

Finally, as usual, be careful what you wish for. You might get it. Many of the same people who hate the individual mandate also hate Social Security. They want to replace it with a law forcing (i.e., mandating) people to buy a pension or investments from a private insurance company, bank, or broker instead. If the Supreme Court says the government can't force people to buy health insurance from a private company, it is not likely to say the government can force people to buy a pension plan from a private company, thus derailing a major goal of the conservative movement.

Again, none of this is a secret to the justices. The four Democratic appointees are very likely to vote for the law's constitutionality. Clarence Thomas (and probably Samuel Alito) are likely to vote to strike it down. The other three, John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, and Anthony Kennedy are surely going to think hard to find a way to out of this mess. Roberts cares about the Court's reputation and probably does not want a 5-4 decision along partisan lines if he can avoid it. Scalia and Kennedy voted with the majority in Gonzales v. Raich, so if they vote against the ACA, they are going to be pilloried for saying that growing marijuana for personal medical use is interstate commerce but something that affects 18% of the economy is not.

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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:39 pm

Supreme Court justice Antonin Scalia humorously invoked the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution, which forbids cruel and unusual punishments, when discussing the Obamacare legislation during oral argument today at the Supreme Court.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Mr. Kneedler, what happened to the Eighth Amendment? You really want us to go through these 2,700 pages?

(Laughter.)

JUSTICE SCALIA: And do you really expect the Court to do that? Or do you expect us to — to give this function to our law clerks?

Is this not totally unrealistic? That we are going to go through this enormous bill item by item and decide each one?

MR. KNEEDLER: Well -
http://freebeacon.com/scalia-likens-oba ... unishment/

Law Clerks cringing at that last two questions... :funny:

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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:56 pm

Flashback - We have to pass Obamacare, so that you can find out what is in it! http://blog.heritage.org/2010/03/10/vid ... -is-in-it/

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Tero
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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Tero » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:39 pm

Funny how you have to apply a 1770s constitution to a modern country. Stuff in there refers to muskets and sailing ships.

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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Ian » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:22 am

Another excellent analysis from 538:
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.co ... n-history/

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Warren Dew
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Re: U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

Post by Warren Dew » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:34 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Supreme Court justice Antonin Scalia humorously invoked the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution, which forbids cruel and unusual punishments, when discussing the Obamacare legislation during oral argument today at the Supreme Court.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Mr. Kneedler, what happened to the Eighth Amendment? You really want us to go through these 2,700 pages?

(Laughter.)

JUSTICE SCALIA: And do you really expect the Court to do that? Or do you expect us to — to give this function to our law clerks?

Is this not totally unrealistic? That we are going to go through this enormous bill item by item and decide each one?

MR. KNEEDLER: Well -
http://freebeacon.com/scalia-likens-oba ... unishment/

Law Clerks cringing at that last two questions... :funny:
Then Justice Kagan said:
I mean, we have never suggested that we're ... going to try to figure out exactly what would have happened in the complex parlaimentary shenanigans that go on across the street....

Instead, we look at the text that's actually given us. For some people, we look only at the text. It should be easy for Justice Scalia's clerks.
(Scalia has always been adamantly opposed to looking at the legislative history, instead preferring to focus just on the text of the law.)
Coito ergo sum wrote:Flashback - We have to pass Obamacare, so that you can find out what is in it! http://blog.heritage.org/2010/03/10/vid ... -is-in-it/
Obviously we're still working on the finding out what's in it part!

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