Catholic Church to pay Taxes :O

[Azathoth]

altruism and charity? Yep that is what it is all about. No pocket lining going on at all.

The average salary for a lead pastor in a megachurch is $147,000, according to a recent survey.

Salaries for lead pastors go as high as $400,000 to as low as $40,000, Leadership Network reported in its 2010 Large Church Salary and Benefits Report.

Executive pastors at churches that have a weekend attendance of 2,000 or more persons earn, on average, $99,000 a year and worship pastors get paid $75,000.

Meanwhile, high school pastors earn $54,000 and the church technology director earns $58,000. The salary figures do not include the value of benefits.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/repor ... ors-46779/

[Svartalf]

Nothing to do with charities and foundations being tax deductible either

[Hermit]

I am deeply worried that the Pope's welfare is at risk if the Vatican was once more obliged to pay the taxes they paid up to 2005.

[Warren Dew]

Is the Vatican (being a sovereign state) a signatory to the EU?

I don't think the article is talking about the Vatican itself. I think the "about 100,000 properties, classed as non-commercial, including 8,779 schools, 26,300 ecclesiastical structures and 4,714 hospitals and clinics" the article mentions are the ones scattered throughout Italy that are owned by the Catholic Church.

So, is this advocacy for taxing schools, churches and hospitals?

Half a dozen posts on the first page, including yours quoted above, appeared to assume that the property in question was the Vatican City itself. In the post you are quoting here I just wanted to provide a relevant quote, from the article originally linked, that indicated otherwise, to get the discussion on track. The Italian government trying to tax Vatican City would be tantamount to a declaration of war on a foreign government. The Italian government rescinding special tax benefits for property in Italy owned by the Catholic Church is, in contrast, entirely legal.

That said, in answer to your question, I would prefer that churches and hospitals pay the same property taxes as everyone else, since they benefit from the same public services that property taxes normally pay for. If we had a sensible school system that eliminated public schools in favor of vouchers, I'd prefer that schools also pay property taxes.

In some states, your argument that such organizations perform roles that might otherwise be performed by government may be an argument for exemption from income taxes, which are what would generally be used to provide those roles. However, even that is somewhat questionable, since for profit hospitals seem to be able to compete adequately against nonprofit hospitals, showing that tax exemption is not required.

[Seth]

Altruism? Charity?

Yeah, right - it has nothing to with heavenly rewards.

This is altruism.

Wow! Three (maybe 4) whole Atheists who are generous and altruistic to an extraordinary extent because they have profited enormously from their businesses. Now, what about all the other selfish, parsimonious Atheist assholes who don't?

Whatever heavenly rewards await Catholics, their charity and altruism here on earth outstrips your garden-variety Atheist (other than the uber-rich few) and has for thousands of years.

[Seth]

altruism and charity? Yep that is what it is all about. No pocket lining going on at all.

The average salary for a lead pastor in a megachurch is $147,000, according to a recent survey.

Salaries for lead pastors go as high as $400,000 to as low as $40,000, Leadership Network reported in its 2010 Large Church Salary and Benefits Report.

Executive pastors at churches that have a weekend attendance of 2,000 or more persons earn, on average, $99,000 a year and worship pastors get paid $75,000.

Meanwhile, high school pastors earn $54,000 and the church technology director earns $58,000. The salary figures do not include the value of benefits.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/repor ... ors-46779/

Goalpost shifting going on here. You are fallaciously and mendaciously trying to conflate Catholics with evangelical mega-churches. Go look up how much your average Catholic parish priest gets paid why don't you?

[Seth]

Is the Vatican (being a sovereign state) a signatory to the EU?

I don't think the article is talking about the Vatican itself. I think the "about 100,000 properties, classed as non-commercial, including 8,779 schools, 26,300 ecclesiastical structures and 4,714 hospitals and clinics" the article mentions are the ones scattered throughout Italy that are owned by the Catholic Church.

So, is this advocacy for taxing schools, churches and hospitals?

Half a dozen posts on the first page, including yours quoted above, appeared to assume that the property in question was the Vatican City itself. In the post you are quoting here I just wanted to provide a relevant quote, from the article originally linked, that indicated otherwise, to get the discussion on track. The Italian government trying to tax Vatican City would be tantamount to a declaration of war on a foreign government. The Italian government rescinding special tax benefits for property in Italy owned by the Catholic Church is, in contrast, entirely legal.

I didn't say it wasn't legal, I said it was bad public policy.

That said, in answer to your question, I would prefer that churches and hospitals pay the same property taxes as everyone else, since they benefit from the same public services that property taxes normally pay for. If we had a sensible school system that eliminated public schools in favor of vouchers, I'd prefer that schools also pay property taxes.

Again, those public services are mostly NOT paid for by property taxes, they are generally paid for by other forms of taxation like sales taxes. And the infrastructure costs are billed directly as fees in many cases, including water, power, sewer and suchlike. Why should anyone pay property taxes merely for the privilege of owning property?

In some states, your argument that such organizations perform roles that might otherwise be performed by government may be an argument for exemption from income taxes, which are what would generally be used to provide those roles. However, even that is somewhat questionable, since for profit hospitals seem to be able to compete adequately against nonprofit hospitals, showing that tax exemption is not required.

For-profit hospitals compete because they are not required by federal law or their own organizations to serve the indigent free of charge, or because they are compensated for such services by federal tax money, which is NOT collected from property taxes, which are entirely STATE imposed taxes. Federal funds come from income and business taxes.

Again, why should anyone be required to rent their property from the government even if they are not using services?

[amok]

Leaving aside the debate about whether any taxes are right or wrong, this case doesn't seem to actually be suggesting that churches proper will be taxed the same as commercial properties.

From the link in the OP:

Since 2005 church-run organisations have not been considered ordinary commercial structures and have been exempt. According to Corriere della Sera newspaper, tax authorities will judge how much of a property is used purely for religious purposes and tax it accordingly. Thus a church will remain exempt. But a hostel with a chapel would have to make contributions.

If a hostel is a commercial enterprise, it should be taxed the same as any other commercial enterprise. If a percentage of the property is deemed to be a charitable/religious organization, and if those organizations are exempt, it should only be taxed proportionately.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Leaving aside the debate about whether any taxes are right or wrong, this case doesn't seem to actually be suggesting that churches proper will be taxed the same as commercial properties.

From the link in the OP:

Since 2005 church-run organisations have not been considered ordinary commercial structures and have been exempt. According to Corriere della Sera newspaper, tax authorities will judge how much of a property is used purely for religious purposes and tax it accordingly. Thus a church will remain exempt. But a hostel with a chapel would have to make contributions.

If a hostel is a commercial enterprise, it should be taxed the same as any other commercial enterprise. If a percentage of the property is deemed to be a charitable/religious organization, and if those organizations are exempt, it should only be taxed proportionately.

Loopholes will be exploited to the max. It's kind of a rule.

[Azathoth]

altruism and charity? Yep that is what it is all about. No pocket lining going on at all.

The average salary for a lead pastor in a megachurch is $147,000, according to a recent survey.

Salaries for lead pastors go as high as $400,000 to as low as $40,000, Leadership Network reported in its 2010 Large Church Salary and Benefits Report.

Executive pastors at churches that have a weekend attendance of 2,000 or more persons earn, on average, $99,000 a year and worship pastors get paid $75,000.

Meanwhile, high school pastors earn $54,000 and the church technology director earns $58,000. The salary figures do not include the value of benefits.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/repor ... ors-46779/

Goalpost shifting going on here. You are fallaciously and mendaciously trying to conflate Catholics with evangelical mega-churches. Go look up how much your average Catholic parish priest gets paid why don't you?

Catholics are even worse. Heard of the vatican bank?

[Azathoth]

altruism and charity? Yep that is what it is all about. No pocket lining going on at all.

The average salary for a lead pastor in a megachurch is $147,000, according to a recent survey.

Salaries for lead pastors go as high as $400,000 to as low as $40,000, Leadership Network reported in its 2010 Large Church Salary and Benefits Report.

Executive pastors at churches that have a weekend attendance of 2,000 or more persons earn, on average, $99,000 a year and worship pastors get paid $75,000.

Meanwhile, high school pastors earn $54,000 and the church technology director earns $58,000. The salary figures do not include the value of benefits.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/repor ... ors-46779/

Goalpost shifting going on here. You are fallaciously and mendaciously trying to conflate Catholics with evangelical mega-churches. Go look up how much your average Catholic parish priest gets paid why don't you?

Catholics are even worse. Heard of the vatican bank?

edit: around $40000 on average with a free house, all expenses paid and as many altar boys as you can bugger. On top of that they get paid directly for every baptism/wedding/funeral they do. Not on the breadline are they?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

edit: around $40000 on average with a free house, all expenses paid and as many altar boys as you can bugger. Not on the breadline are they?

It gets better. I knew a pastor who worked with the sperm donor at GM. He pulled in two salaries, in exchange for writing one sermon a week and officiating at weddings and funerals, both of which he demanded a fee for doing.

On the other paw, I knew another pastor who had adopted seven children to go with their own four, and worked at least two jobs to feed everybody. I used to take cans of veggies from our pantry when I went to dinner there.

[Drewish]

Seth, saying that churches should not be taxed because of their altruistic missions is the surest way to NOT get me to agree with you

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

[Warren Dew]

Again, those public services are mostly NOT paid for by property taxes, they are generally paid for by other forms of taxation like sales taxes.

In all the cities I've lived in, the water and sewer infrastructure, local roads, and local police are paid for through property taxes. The water itself is billed, but that cost does not cover the cost of installing and maintaining the pipes to the buildings.

In places where most of those services don't exist, such as the ranch you describe, property taxes should be lower. That's not an argument for giving the churches a break when the rest of us have to pay property taxes, though. If you think property taxes should be zero, they should be zero for everyone, not just for churches.

For-profit hospitals compete because they are not required by federal law or their own organizations to serve the indigent free of charge, or because they are compensated for such services by federal tax money, which is NOT collected from property taxes, which are entirely STATE imposed taxes. Federal funds come from income and business taxes.

Medicaid payments for care to the indigent are just as available to church run hospitals as to private hospitals. Again, that's not a reason to discriminate in favor of churches against private enterprise.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

In all the cities I've lived in, the water and sewer infrastructure, local roads, and local police are paid for through property taxes. The water itself is billed, but that cost does not cover the cost of installing and maintaining the pipes to the buildings.

But Libernazis don't want to pay for those services, they just want to use them.