Give British People the vote

[ronmcd]

It's just self interest, masquerading as some sort of ancient human right.

Well of course and until we are all individual self governing sentient animals, ALL political and territorial considerations are, those wishing for Scotland's independence are no different in that regard than those who still wish to nibble on Westminster's teat in that regard. Nor the English folk who want rid of us because they think us over subsidised or the ones who want us to stay to keep the union strong. It's all self interest, pretence at otherwise is obvious and embarrassing.

Yup, as you say, of course. Self interest is why people want self determination, I think. Probably less to do with individual self interest, more the interest of a wider "us", whoever we think of as being "us".

The reason independence currently only gets 35-40% in polls is because most people in Scotland think of "us" as being Scotland within the UK. The question is whether that will change by 2014. Who knows. Interesting times

[mistermack]

Well of course the SNP pre-date oil. But they were small, and didn't get much of a vote then.
It's only since oil and the EU that their support has grown.
It's a combination of the two things that make independence at all attractive.

Ireland was always different, it was religion motivated mostly.
You say Scotland IS a country. What is a country? It was a country when they had different Kings. What's the difference between Scotland and Cornwall? Or Scotland and the Basque country? Or Scotland and Eastern Libya?
They have their own football teams and Rugby teams. Until the labour party went on this devolution craze, that was about it.

My personal feeling is that it's regressive. Nationalism should be dying out, not growing. It's the stupidest facet of human nature. We get it from our ape ancestors, who lived in extended gangs and tribes for safety. It should have had it's day long ago.

AAAAAAAAAnyway,
what's the answer to the title of the thread.
Should the rest of the UK be granted a vote for independence from Scotland?
It seems only fair.

[ronmcd]

Well of course the SNP pre-date oil. But they were small, and didn't get much of a vote then.
It's only since oil and the EU that their support has grown.
It's a combination of the two things that make independence at all attractive.

No, the SNP only started getting votes once they proved themselves competent in the Scottish parliament. You are still missing the point - the % of people who say they will vote for independence hasnt really changed. The SNP are elected because they run the Scottish government well, not because people want independence. But they have a mandate to campaign for it, and ask the question. So they will. This terrifies the unionist parties and westminister, who simply havent thought about the consequences until recently. In Scotland? People have been having these discussions for decades, it's not the new scary topic here it's become nationally since Cameron got involved in Jan this year.

You say Scotland IS a country. What is a country? It was a country when they had different Kings. What's the difference between Scotland and Cornwall? Or Scotland and the Basque country? Or Scotland and Eastern Libya?
They have their own football teams and Rugby teams. Until the labour party went on this devolution craze, that was about it.

You'd probably have to spend time here to see it, I guess. It IS a different place, it IS a different country. It always has been. Remember - again - the % for independence hasnt changed. But people here have always had a very strong sense of being a different country than the rest of UK. We have utterly different education, a completely different legal system, even before devolution. Scotland is not Cornwall. And there is an increasing feeling of unease over UK policies when compared to those in Scotland, and thats making the differences more obvious I think.

My personal feeling is that it's regressive. Nationalism should be dying out, not growing. It's the stupidest facet of human nature. We get it from our ape ancestors, who lived in extended gangs and tribes for safety. It should have had it's day long ago.

Hmm. Do you feel the same way about British Nationalism? ie the British attitude to the EU or Europe in general? No, I would guess you don't want Europe creating UK laws or imposing policies you dont agree with on UK, and that same attitude has always been the source of much of Scottish Nationalism - local decisions. Today the SNP are not ethnic nationalists, they are a social democratic party whose MSP's and supporters are Scots, English, Christians, Muslims, and more. It's not about being "Scottish" at all, it's about the people who live and choose to live in Scotland, deciding what is best for Scotland, Scots or not. Holyrood has given people a taste for it.

It is just about making local decisions, not ancient tribalism as you claim. Well, no more than UK not wanting to be run from Brussels ...

AAAAAAAAAnyway,
what's the answer to the title of the thread.
Should the rest of the UK be granted a vote for independence from Scotland?
It seems only fair.

Sure. If a party in the rest of UK have a policy of independence from Scotland, then get elected on that mandate, then bring forward proposals, and have them voted on in a referendum ... why not?

[Feck]

I haven't seen any answer to my earlier question.

If the residents of the Orkney and Shetland Isles decided they wanted independence, do they have a right to a binding referendum, and independence from Scotland?

If the residents of the islands wanted independence, voted for it, they would get it. Who could prevent self determination, and who would want to? It's worth remembering there IS no such demand for independence.

As for a "binding referendum", there is no such thing. The AV referendum wasnt binding, it was just accepted as such. A Scottish referendum would be accepted also, with or without legal approval from Westminister. And Orkney and Shetland would be the same.

Just wait till they strike oil just north of Orkney.


.

Do you mean like the West of Shetland field ?

[HomerJay]

It's really not. The Scottish Parliament whether you like it or not now exists, and as such it represents the Scottish people rather than the UK.

Now, because the parliament exists, and it represents Scotland only as opposed to the UK, AND it was elected with a mandate for a referendum, it can damn well hold one. And if a majority of people say yes, Scotland will be independent.

Except technically it doesn't represent the Scottish people or Scotland.

It represents the EU residents of Scotland.

EU citizens have a right to vote in regional elections wherever they reside.

The Catlicks were out in force trying to persuade Poles to vote SNP.

So an interesting question is whether EU residents should vote on independence or if denying them the vote would be against their EU rights. They could vote for the SNP MSPs now and then find post independence that they lost the right as the Scottish Parliament would now be national and not regional, as defined by the EU.

It's absolutely correct that the franchise will be the people who live in Scotland, rather than ethnicity. Thats how it should be. If I lived in another EU country, earned my living there, contributed as a full member of that society, I should be able to vote there. And vote on a constitutional issue also.

It isn't how it is and it isn't how it should be.

EU law only allows voting on regional not constitutional issues. You can't have foreign nationals voting on UK foreign policy towards their home countries.

It possibly delegitimises Salmond's mandate for power and it would certainly delegitimise an independence vote, as it becomes a national, not regional issue.

[ronmcd]

It's really not. The Scottish Parliament whether you like it or not now exists, and as such it represents the Scottish people rather than the UK.

Now, because the parliament exists, and it represents Scotland only as opposed to the UK, AND it was elected with a mandate for a referendum, it can damn well hold one. And if a majority of people say yes, Scotland will be independent.

Except technically it doesn't represent the Scottish people or Scotland.

It represents the EU residents of Scotland.

EU citizens have a right to vote in regional elections wherever they reside.

The Catlicks were out in force trying to persuade Poles to vote SNP.

So an interesting question is whether EU residents should vote on independence or if denying them the vote would be against their EU rights. They could vote for the SNP MSPs now and then find post independence that they lost the right as the Scottish Parliament would now be national and not regional, as defined by the EU.

It's absolutely correct that the franchise will be the people who live in Scotland, rather than ethnicity. Thats how it should be. If I lived in another EU country, earned my living there, contributed as a full member of that society, I should be able to vote there. And vote on a constitutional issue also.

It isn't how it is and it isn't how it should be.

EU law only allows voting on regional not constitutional issues. You can't have foreign nationals voting on UK foreign policy towards their home countries.

It possibly delegitimises Salmond's mandate for power and it would certainly delegitimise an independence vote, as it becomes a national, not regional issue.

Strange, cos it's the exact same franchise which voted in 1997 to create the Scottish Parliament. Odd, noone claimed that wasn't legitimate ...

[ronmcd]

It isn't how it is and it isn't how it should be.

EU law only allows voting on regional not constitutional issues. You can't have foreign nationals voting on UK foreign policy towards their home countries.

It possibly delegitimises Salmond's mandate for power and it would certainly delegitimise an independence vote, as it becomes a national, not regional issue.

Incidentally, who is it that you think should vote in the referendum on Scottish Independence?

[ronmcd]

It isn't how it is and it isn't how it should be.

EU law only allows voting on regional not constitutional issues. You can't have foreign nationals voting on UK foreign policy towards their home countries.

It possibly delegitimises Salmond's mandate for power and it would certainly delegitimise an independence vote, as it becomes a national, not regional issue.

The UK Electoral Commission don't appear to agree with your claim. They released a response to the two consultations this week, from Scottish and UK governments, and they confirm that : "The franchise for elections and referendums is properly a matter for Governments and Parliaments to determine"

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/_ ... ations.pdf

The referendum franchise

8.1 Both the UK and Scottish Government consultation papers propose using
the existing franchise for Scottish Parliament and local government elections as
the basis for determining eligibility to vote in the referendum, although the
Scottish Government has also proposed to allow “16 and 17 year olds who are
eligible to be registered under the existing UK legislation” to vote at the
referendum. To be eligible to vote in the Scottish Parliament elections or local
government election in Scotland, a person must be aged 18 or over on polling
day, be a British, Irish, European Union or qualifying Commonwealth citizen, and
be registered to vote at an address in Scotland.

8.2 The franchise for elections and referendums is properly a matter for
Governments and Parliaments to determine. Our priority is that there are no
barriers to participation in the referendum by all eligible electors, and that the
registers used to administer the poll are complete and accurate, regardless of
the particular franchise in use. In that context, we comment in this chapter on
the practical implications of the proposals.

[mistermack]

Do you mean like the West of Shetland field ?

I'm really talking hypothetically. Would an independent Scotland give a region the same rights to independence that they claim for themselves?

I simply don't believe that they would. I would really like that question to be put to Alex Salmond.
But he's so slimey, he would just dodge the question, and slither by.

[mistermack]

My prediction :

If the opinion polls say that the referendum will be lost, Salmond will find an excuse not to hold it.
If the bookies are taking money, I want to know the odds, because it's a really safe bet.

You can see it happening already with the Devo Max rubbish, and the votes for 16 year olds. He also has the option of making the referendum question so biased, Westminster will be forced to refuse it.
He's lining up the excuses as we speak.

He'll just use the excuses to post-bone the referendum till the opinion polls change in his favour, and he'll blame Westminster for the referendum not taking place.

The Unionist camp is being a bit dim, not pointing it out. Or maybe they have.

[ronmcd]

Do you mean like the West of Shetland field ?

I'm really talking hypothetically. Would an independent Scotland give a region the same rights to independence that they claim for themselves?

I simply don't believe that they would. I would really like that question to be put to Alex Salmond.
But he's so slimey, he would just dodge the question, and slither by.

You genuinely seem to think Scotland shouldnt be able to exercise self determination, going by this fascination with the Shetlands? Scotland wouldnt GIVE the Shetlands the rights, they already have the right. Similarly the UK doesnt have to GIVE Scotland the right, we have the right.

And on the original question of this thread, so do England.

[ronmcd]

My prediction :

If the opinion polls say that the referendum will be lost, Salmond will find an excuse not to hold it.
If the bookies are taking money, I want to know the odds, because it's a really safe bet.

You can see it happening already with the Devo Max rubbish, and the votes for 16 year olds. He also has the option of making the referendum question so biased, Westminster will be forced to refuse it.
He's lining up the excuses as we speak.

He'll just use the excuses to post-bone the referendum till the opinion polls change in his favour, and he'll blame Westminster for the referendum not taking place.

The Unionist camp is being a bit dim, not pointing it out. Or maybe they have.

You really do have your finger on the pulse, don't you?

The opinion polls say independence will fail, currently, but we have 2+ years to discuss the issues. The Scottish people will absolutely know what they are voting for. The question has already been released, in the Scottish Government's consultation.

"Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"

Thats it.

Devo max is not the SNP's policy, and they are not going to include such an option unless someone else wants it, and defines it. Many Scottish Labour voters, some politicians, the Scottish Trade Unions Congress, Voluntary organisations and others support it, and support it being on the paper. Polls suggest its the most popular option, ahead of independence, and waaaay ahead of the status quo. So if there is some sort of consensus it will probably appear.

[ronmcd]

My opinion? I think the SNP and Salmond have been even more clever than people think. They have managed to trick the westminister parties into thinking that they want devo max on the paper, as a fall back position. Actually, I think they have calculated that if westminister think they want it they will do everything in their power to stop it, just to stick it to Salmond.

Consider for a second ... Salmond appears for 2 years to secretly want the devo max option, eventually giving in at the last moment and only asking one question. His question. And reminding the Scottish people who it was who prevented him from adding it to the paper despite it being THE most popular option ... so ... do you think people will vote YES or NO after that?

Hmmm

[mistermack]

No I don't have my finger on the pulse. I never said I did.

"Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"
There's the biased question I mentioned right there.

Not.... Do you want Scotland to split from the rest of the UK?
or to be fair to both sides .. do you want Scotland to split from the rest of the UK, and be independent?

Looks like my prediction was coming true before I made it.

[Feck]

Let's face it the Scots will vote for Independence because they think Braveheart was history ,they would probably vote Mel Gibson in as King unless a 'smear' campaign was started to explain he's actually an Aussie . And they can't blame the blue noses anymore since they went broke so that will be it Scotland the brave and Mel Gibson as King .