Give British People the vote

[Feck]

..of course they could decriminalise heroin and charge duty on it. Make 'em one of the richest countries around!

But then how would the police make any money? they don't all live in London and get paid by News International and you can't expect them to work for just the wages can you ?

[Rum]

..of course they could decriminalise heroin and charge duty on it. Make 'em one of the richest countries around!

But then how would the police make any money? they don't all live in London and get paid by News International and you can't expect them to work for just the wages can you ?

With heroin legal an a doped up population who would need the police!?

[ronmcd]

Salmond could try to hold that referendum, but the Westminster Parliament could just tell him to fuck off.
It's up to the UK Parliament to decide how the regions are governed.

It's really not. The Scottish Parliament whether you like it or not now exists, and as such it represents the Scottish people rather than the UK. The government in that Parliament, the only one in UK with a majority I believe (under PR!), was elected on a manifesto which included a referendum. There is a mandate there, it's undeniable.

Now, because the parliament exists, and it represents Scotland only as opposed to the UK, AND it was elected with a mandate for a referendum, it can damn well hold one. And if a majority of people say yes, Scotland will be independent. It's inconceivable that the UK would even try to prevent self determination if the people chose it. Similarly, it's utterly self-defeating for the UK Parliament to prevent the Scottish govt holding their referendum on their own terms, because that would be political suicide for Westminister.

It's worth noting that Westminister is NOT sovereign in this regard. Westminister and it's laws only apply to Scotland because the union currently exists between Scotland and England. If either one decides to secede from the Union, what Westminister thinks is irrelevant. Thats why the Claim of Right is important in Scotland ... it says the Scottish people, not Westminister, are sovereign.

Discuss ...

I would like to see Labour or the Tories go into the next election with a clear promise to abolish the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. Devolution was the most stupid thing that Labour have ever done. And it cost an absolute fortune.

Surest way to ensure Scottish Independence, absolutely guaranteed. UK won't force the issue in that way, UK needs the Faslane sub base and won't do anything beyond try and scare Scots into voting no. That's why even Cameron made a wooly and undefined 'jam tomorrow' offer when he visited Scotland recently, suggesting we should vote no and then we'd all get sweeties. Or something. Didn't really make it clear ...

[mistermack]

You didn't read what I said.
You said you would just hold a referendum on devolution max.
I said that they could tell Salmond to fuck off re devolution max.

The referendum on the independence question is agreed. Nothing else is.

I don't care if Scotland votes for independence. I hope they do. But I do care about Scotland getting rights that the English and Welsh don't.

So Cameron should make it quite clear that devolution max is not on offer. And Salmond has no power impose it.
And it is OF COURSE a matter for the UK as a whole, not Scotland. If you're in, you get the same as everyone else. Not devolution max. If you're out, you're out. Join the Euro, and go your own way.

[ronmcd]

You didn't read what I said.
You said you would just hold a referendum on devolution max.
I said that they could tell Salmond to fuck off re devolution max.

The referendum on the independence question is agreed. Nothing else is.

I don't care if Scotland votes for independence. I hope they do. But I do care about Scotland getting rights that the English and Welsh don't.

So Cameron should make it quite clear that devolution max is not on offer. And Salmond has no power impose it.
And it is OF COURSE a matter for the UK as a whole, not Scotland. If you're in, you get the same as everyone else. Not devolution max. If you're out, you're out. Join the Euro, and go your own way.

Fair enough, it's certainly true that 'devo max' isn't something Scotland could decide on unilaterally. But that's not what that option would mean on the referendum paper, it would just be an indication of what the people wanted. How that would be achieved would be a completely different matter.

No matter is it's Devo max or independence, I suspect Scotland will eventually end up with control of taxation AND spending. It's really the conservative position, or should be : no handouts or subsidy, no Barnett formula, full responsibility for raising money, and almost certainly no Scottish MPs voting on English issues. It's also, or should be, the LibDem position, effectively ushering in a Federal system for Scotland which will likely lead to demands for the same for England.

[ronmcd]

You didn't read what I said.
You said you would just hold a referendum on devolution max.

Incidentally, I didn't say that, it was Jesus_of_Nazareth. I just elbowed my way into the middle of your conversation.

My opinion? Scotland will have a referendum in 2014, and it will have an independence, devo (something), and status quo options. Because the westminister parties can't risk the two extremes only without risking driving people to say yes. But we will see.

[mistermack]

You didn't read what I said.
You said you would just hold a referendum on devolution max.

Incidentally, I didn't say that, it was Jesus_of_Nazareth. I just elbowed my way into the middle of your conversation.

Oh yeh. Sorry about that. Silly me.

And I accused YOU of not reading what I said. Tsk tsk.

[ronmcd]

You didn't read what I said.
You said you would just hold a referendum on devolution max.

Incidentally, I didn't say that, it was Jesus_of_Nazareth. I just elbowed my way into the middle of your conversation.

Oh yeh. Sorry about that. Silly me.

And I accused YOU of not reading what I said. Tsk tsk.

It's ok, you were right actually, I skimmed your post and didn't even notice you were talking about devo max. You were just wrong about which post I didn't read properly!

[Tyrannical]

I'm simply amazed that the Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English can't get along well enough while it is still acceptable to import Blacks, Muslims, Asians and Eastern Europeans into the mix.

[ronmcd]

I'm simply amazed that the Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English can't get along well enough while it is still acceptable to import Blacks, Muslims, Asians and Eastern Europeans into the mix.

I think the Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English get along fine. That has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration policy, largely dictated by open internal EU borders.

[Tyrannical]

I'm simply amazed that the Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English can't get along well enough while it is still acceptable to import Blacks, Muslims, Asians and Eastern Europeans into the mix.

I think the Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English get along fine. That has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration policy, largely dictated by open internal EU borders.

If they got along fine you'd not have a Northern Ireland and the conflict that goes with it, nor would Scotland desire independence.

[HomerJay]

It's really not. The Scottish Parliament whether you like it or not now exists, and as such it represents the Scottish people rather than the UK.

Now, because the parliament exists, and it represents Scotland only as opposed to the UK, AND it was elected with a mandate for a referendum, it can damn well hold one. And if a majority of people say yes, Scotland will be independent.

Except technically it doesn't represent the Scottish people or Scotland.

It represents the EU residents of Scotland.

EU citizens have a right to vote in regional elections wherever they reside.

The Catlicks were out in force trying to persuade Poles to vote SNP.

So an interesting question is whether EU residents should vote on independence or if denying them the vote would be against their EU rights. They could vote for the SNP MSPs now and then find post independence that they lost the right as the Scottish Parliament would now be national and not regional, as defined by the EU.

[ronmcd]

I'm simply amazed that the Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English can't get along well enough while it is still acceptable to import Blacks, Muslims, Asians and Eastern Europeans into the mix.

I think the Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English get along fine. That has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration policy, largely dictated by open internal EU borders.

If they got along fine you'd not have a Northern Ireland and the conflict that goes with it, nor would Scotland desire independence.

The divide in NI isn't between the Irish and the other countries. It's a cultural division based on religion. The desire for independence amongst Scots, currently only 30 - 40% btw, isn't about having ANY problems getting along with the rest of the UK. It's about the growing division between the policies the majority in Scotland want and pursue in devolved issues, and the more conservative policies pursued at Westminister by both the current government AND the last "new" Labour government.

It's not an ethnic nationalism, it's about control over policy. Many SNP supporters and even some SNP politicians are English.

[mistermack]

I haven't seen any answer to my earlier question.

If the residents of the Orkney and Shetland Isles decided they wanted independence, do they have a right to a binding referendum, and independence from Scotland?

[ronmcd]

It's really not. The Scottish Parliament whether you like it or not now exists, and as such it represents the Scottish people rather than the UK.

Now, because the parliament exists, and it represents Scotland only as opposed to the UK, AND it was elected with a mandate for a referendum, it can damn well hold one. And if a majority of people say yes, Scotland will be independent.

Except technically it doesn't represent the Scottish people or Scotland.

It represents the EU residents of Scotland.

EU citizens have a right to vote in regional elections wherever they reside.

The Catlicks were out in force trying to persuade Poles to vote SNP.

So an interesting question is whether EU residents should vote on independence or if denying them the vote would be against their EU rights. They could vote for the SNP MSPs now and then find post independence that they lost the right as the Scottish Parliament would now be national and not regional, as defined by the EU.

It's absolutely correct that the franchise will be the people who live in Scotland, rather than ethnicity. Thats how it should be. If I lived in another EU country, earned my living there, contributed as a full member of that society, I should be able to vote there. And vote on a constitutional issue also.

There is no doubt about the franchise for the referendum, it is the same as the franchise which elected MSP's to the Scottish Parliament. That did and does include EU citizens who are on the electoral register at the time. My brother for example was born and brought up in Scotland, 30 years here. The last 10 years he has lived in England. He has no vote on the referendum, rightly so. He votes in England, and should have a vote on any constitutional changes proposed for England, if or when that happens.

The only proposed change for the referendum is to allow 16 and 17 year olds, as in Scotland they are classed as adults, and labour SNP and libdems all agree with that principle. (altho they are arguing over if it should be extended first for this vote)