Ayn Rand: The Philosophy of the Psychopath

[Pappa]

Coito, I think much of the criticism of Objectivism comes from a distaste for the consequences of the ideology rather than the principles themselves. Much of your own criticisms of Marxism are of a similar nature. Ideological principles never exist in a vacuum and if people find the consequences or potential consequences of an ideology repugnant then they are (perhaps justifiably) going to criticise the ideology on that basis.

[Clinton Huxley]

Agree with Pappa. As a solid Britisher, I have a distaste for all ideologies. Better by far to just keep on buggering on. Nothing good ever came from an ideology.

[Coito ergo sum]

Coito, I think much of the criticism of Objectivism comes from a distaste for the consequences of the ideology rather than the principles themselves. Much of your own criticisms of Marxism are of a similar nature. Ideological principles never exist in a vacuum and if people find the consequences or potential consequences of an ideology repugnant then they are (perhaps justifiably) going to criticise the ideology on that basis.

The distinction is that I point to a fundamental principle of Marxism and explain why I think the philosophy is horrid and wrong. I actually read what Marx and Engels wrote, and critique that. If you recall, in our discussion on Marxism, I have quoted material from the Communist Manifesto, Marx's critique of Hegel's philosophy of right and other Marxist primary texts. I did not seek to do anything except interpret and apply what Marx actually wrote. If someone would do that with respect to Objectivism, we could have a serious discussion about it.

However, all that has so far been said by those who find it to be so distasteful is that it is "evil" and it means that some people are "superior" to others and that everyone runs around stealing from each other, oppressing each other and killing each other. That just strikes me as people not knowing much about it, and simply designating Objectivism as an enemy team.

[Drewish]

Coito, I think much of the criticism of Objectivism comes from a distaste for the consequences of the ideology rather than the principles themselves. Much of your own criticisms of Marxism are of a similar nature. Ideological principles never exist in a vacuum and if people find the consequences or potential consequences of an ideology repugnant then they are (perhaps justifiably) going to criticise the ideology on that basis.

Most people disagree with things like Marxism or Objectivism over what THEY BELIEVE will be the consequences of it. Most people like to think that they can have their cake and eat it to. They would prefer to think that by not making difficult decision, they do not matter. The Objectivist says, "If you cannot learn to feed yourself you will starve." The Marxist says, "If you cannot justify your worth to the group, why should we feed you?" People just pretend that by not choosing that people aren't starving when in fact they are. Any ideology that attempts to honestly look at consequences and trade offs is at a disadvantage to those that claim to provide everything for nothing. Such is the nature of the stupidity of humanity.

[MrJonno]

I think the bit of objectivism (according to Wikipedia anyway) that I object to

that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness (or rational self-interest), that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights embodied in laissez faire capitalism, and that the role of art in human life is to transform human

Being rational isnt so bad, the proper and I assume sole moral purpose of your own happiness is highly suspect as is laissez faire capitalism ,I have no problems in use capitalism to pay for a decent society but in the end of the day the public library is more important than the tool used to build it

[Ronja]

The Objectivist says, "If you cannot learn to feed yourself you will starve." The Marxist says, "If you cannot justify your worth to the group, why should we feed you?"

IMO they are both right, at least from a realistic/utilitarian viewpoint - but neither ALONE is correct. And these two correct views about reality most likely aren't enough, either. Life is more complex than that, at least in any human society that I've ever experienced, read about or heard of, except perhaps among the Ik. (*

The trouble with ideologies is that they often try to oversimplify reality. Yet reality just is - no ideology thus far has been able to change that.



(* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ik_people

[Drewish]

I think the bit of objectivism (according to Wikipedia anyway) that I object to

that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness (or rational self-interest), that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights embodied in laissez faire capitalism, and that the role of art in human life is to transform human

Being rational isnt so bad, the proper and I assume sole moral purpose of your own happiness is highly suspect as is laissez faire capitalism ,I have no problems in use capitalism to pay for a decent society but in the end of the day the public library is more important than the tool used to build it

Huh? Sorry, but would you clarify please. I'm having trouble understanding what your issue is.

[MrJonno]

What is moral is only your personal desires?

[Drewish]

Did you by any chance watch the three videos I posted on pages 4 and 5, starting with this one:

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 5#p1134348

?

[PsychoSerenity]

Did you by any chance watch the three videos I posted on pages 4 and 5, starting with this one:

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 5#p1134348

?

I got a few minutes into the one about altruism before I had to stop watching to prevent myself from vomiting.

[Bella Fortuna]

Did you by any chance watch the three videos I posted on pages 4 and 5, starting with this one:

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 5#p1134348

?

I got a few minutes into the one about altruism before I had to stop watching to prevent myself from vomiting.

An altruistic act if ever I saw one...

[apophenia]

I'm too lazy to read all this rot gut. Who's shirts and who's skins?

[Coito ergo sum]

The girls are skins.

[Drewish]

Quick test. LlBERTARIAN. LIBERTARIAN. Lithuanian librarian libertarian. Ha! I knew it!