Killing Babies?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

No but really. I get to be "an antisocial arsehole" because I can take care of myself. I don't need you to take care of me, or need your approval in order to live my life. If I were retarded, always incapable of caring for myself, and dependent on others to do everything for me, that's different. But hey I guess in your world the lazy and incompetent are awesome so long as they lick your boot and thank you so much for all the wonderful crumbs you and society give them, but independent people who don't conform to your social rules should all be killed off for the good of society. How very Christian of you.

You don't live in total isolation, despite Libertarian propaganda to the contrary. You use the society around you like everybody else.

[Azathoth]

I'm totally for the "Spartan Approach." A child is born with downs. Dang. So are we going to force the parents to take care of this kid for the rest of their lives? Should they just give it up and then the tax payers and the state get to care for this retard? Hell no! Quick death, problem solved. Good to know the Nazis got some shit right.

You ever met anyone with Downs? They're real people you know.

Downs would be a bad example. How about if the baby had a brain defect that would guarantee that it would be a twisted drooling vegetable for an entire adult lifetime? Might it not sometimes be better just to give them a quick overdose of something with the consent of the parents? Euthenasia is still euthenasia even if it is a baby

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm totally for the "Spartan Approach." A child is born with downs. Dang. So are we going to force the parents to take care of this kid for the rest of their lives? Should they just give it up and then the tax payers and the state get to care for this retard? Hell no! Quick death, problem solved. Good to know the Nazis got some shit right.

You ever met anyone with Downs? They're real people you know.

So are babies without Downs.

[Svartalf]

I wish I could find the quote, but I remember reading that various cultures at various periods in history have regarded infanticide as a valid form of family planning. Thankfully we have contraception and abortion instead.

Exposure was an accepted practice in Greece and Rome (and possibly Anatolia if Homer and others can be believed...)

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm totally for the "Spartan Approach." A child is born with downs. Dang. So are we going to force the parents to take care of this kid for the rest of their lives? Should they just give it up and then the tax payers and the state get to care for this retard? Hell no! Quick death, problem solved. Good to know the Nazis got some shit right.

You ever met anyone with Downs? They're real people you know.

Downs would be a bad example. How about if the baby had a brain defect that would guarantee that it would be a twisted drooling vegetable for an entire adult lifetime? Might it not sometimes be better just to give them a quick overdose of something with the consent of the parents? Euthenasia is still euthenasia even if it is a baby

No, only healthy white male babies would be killed indiscriminately. Any others would be subject to requests which would go through the Ministry of Proper Thoughts and Reasons.

[PsychoSerenity]

It's not a black and white issue. You can't just say it's either this or this and people must pick one answer to cover all circumstances.

If somebody's going to say that I'm a horrible person though, then perhaps they can then answer the clarifying questions being asked. Sorry, but this is too far into the gritty details to play the, "We can both be right!" card. If somebody is going to condemn me and my positions as horrific, while rejecting laws put forth by others to restrict people from doing things that they find horrific, while also wanting laws to restrict what I can do, then I think I damn well can expect an explanation for why I'm supposedly such a horrible person.

You assumed that was directed to you as opposed to the OP, then perhaps it does apply to what you're talking about.

[Coito ergo sum]

I wish I could find the quote, but I remember reading that various cultures at various periods in history have regarded infanticide as a valid form of family planning. Thankfully we have contraception and abortion instead.

Exposure was an accepted practice in Greece and Rome (and possibly Anatolia if Homer and others can be believed...)

And, generally, they would kill the deformed and defective.

[Drewish]

No but really. I get to be "an antisocial arsehole" because I can take care of myself. I don't need you to take care of me, or need your approval in order to live my life. If I were retarded, always incapable of caring for myself, and dependent on others to do everything for me, that's different. But hey I guess in your world the lazy and incompetent are awesome so long as they lick your boot and thank you so much for all the wonderful crumbs you and society give them, but independent people who don't conform to your social rules should all be killed off for the good of society. How very Christian of you.

You don't live in total isolation, despite Libertarian propaganda to the contrary. You use the society around you like everybody else.

This is n't about libertarianism. Also those public sector things I am forced to pay for, blah, blah, blah, yeah I pay taxes. Special Ed Steve, our hypothetical severely mental handicapped person, does not, can not, and never will. So even if you approach this from a "what's best for society" approach it still holds.

[hadespussercats]

Does it make you a horrible person if you don't?

Yes.

If I knocked a girl up and the tests came back saying the child hadn't developed properly and would be deformed, so we decided to abort based on that, are we horrible people?

Yes, but if you lie and say you did it for no reason at all or because you just weren't ready to be parents, then it would be fine.

Oh, and by the way, as a male, the only acceptable opinion for you to have is "I support her in any decision that she makes. If she has the abortion, I will tell her how wonderful and brave she is. And, if she has the baby, I will pay for it with a smile on my face for the next 18 years, minimum."

Well, for me it comes down to location location location.

When the baby is inside the woman, she can kick it out, even if that means the baby dies, because each of us are masters of our domain. Our bodies, that is. No one has the right to dominate our bodies so completely without our consent.

Once the baby is no longer inside the woman, bodily autonomy is no longer a concern. The charges would shift from self-defense to murder in the first degree.

Now, I will say that I would think a woman who decided on a lark to abort an eight-month child is also a horrible person. But, particularly since in certain cases there are legitimate heath reasons to have an abortion that late in the game, I would not want my opinion to become public policy towards late term abortions.

There are all sorts of things that can make someone a horrible person that aren't against the law.

[Drewish]

Does it make you a horrible person if you don't?

Yes.

If I knocked a girl up and the tests came back saying the child hadn't developed properly and would be deformed, so we decided to abort based on that, are we horrible people?

Yes, but if you lie and say you did it for no reason at all or because you just weren't ready to be parents, then it would be fine.

Oh, and by the way, as a male, the only acceptable opinion for you to have is "I support her in any decision that she makes. If she has the abortion, I will tell her how wonderful and brave she is. And, if she has the baby, I will pay for it with a smile on my face for the next 18 years, minimum."

Well, for me it comes down to location location location.

When the baby is inside the woman, she can kick it out, even if that means the baby dies, because each of us are masters of our domain. Our bodies, that is. No one has the right to dominate our bodies so completely without our consent.

Once the baby is no longer inside the woman, bodily autonomy is no longer a concern. The charges would shift from self-defense to murder in the first degree.

Now, I will say that I would think a woman who decided on a lark to abort an eight-month child is also a horrible person. But, particularly since in certain cases there are legitimate heath reasons to have an abortion that late in the game, I would not want my opinion to become public policy towards late term abortions.

There are all sorts of things that can make someone a horrible person that aren't against the law.

So then I assume that since a woman should have all legal power over whether to have the baby, that then the full legal responsibility of caring for that child should also fall to her.

[hadespussercats]

If I knocked a girl up and the tests came back saying the child hadn't developed properly and would be deformed, so we decided to abort based on that, are we horrible people?

Yes, but if you lie and say you did it for no reason at all or because you just weren't ready to be parents, then it would be fine.

Oh, and by the way, as a male, the only acceptable opinion for you to have is "I support her in any decision that she makes. If she has the abortion, I will tell her how wonderful and brave she is. And, if she has the baby, I will pay for it with a smile on my face for the next 18 years, minimum."

Well, for me it comes down to location location location.

When the baby is inside the woman, she can kick it out, even if that means the baby dies, because each of us are masters of our domain. Our bodies, that is. No one has the right to dominate our bodies so completely without our consent.

Once the baby is no longer inside the woman, bodily autonomy is no longer a concern. The charges would shift from self-defense to murder in the first degree.

Now, I will say that I would think a woman who decided on a lark to abort an eight-month child is also a horrible person. But, particularly since in certain cases there are legitimate heath reasons to have an abortion that late in the game, I would not want my opinion to become public policy towards late term abortions.

There are all sorts of things that can make someone a horrible person that aren't against the law.

So then I assume that since a woman should have all legal power over whether to have the baby, that then the full legal responsibility of caring for that child should also fall to her.

That's a separate issue from her bodily autonomy.

[hadespussercats]

If I knocked a girl up and the tests came back saying the child hadn't developed properly and would be deformed, so we decided to abort based on that, are we horrible people?

Yes, but if you lie and say you did it for no reason at all or because you just weren't ready to be parents, then it would be fine.

Oh, and by the way, as a male, the only acceptable opinion for you to have is "I support her in any decision that she makes. If she has the abortion, I will tell her how wonderful and brave she is. And, if she has the baby, I will pay for it with a smile on my face for the next 18 years, minimum."

Well, for me it comes down to location location location.

When the baby is inside the woman, she can kick it out, even if that means the baby dies, because each of us are masters of our domain. Our bodies, that is. No one has the right to dominate our bodies so completely without our consent.

Once the baby is no longer inside the woman, bodily autonomy is no longer a concern. The charges would shift from self-defense to murder in the first degree.

Now, I will say that I would think a woman who decided on a lark to abort an eight-month child is also a horrible person. But, particularly since in certain cases there are legitimate heath reasons to have an abortion that late in the game, I would not want my opinion to become public policy towards late term abortions.

There are all sorts of things that can make someone a horrible person that aren't against the law.

So then I assume that since a woman should have all legal power over whether to have the baby, that then the full legal responsibility of caring for that child should also fall to her.

While we're assuming, I imagine you'd be down with this plan.


All the orphans, too, right?

[Drewish]

I'm so glad you were able to avoid stooping to ad hominem attacks and non sequiturs.

[PsychoSerenity]

This is n't about libertarianism. Also those public sector things I am forced to pay for, blah, blah, blah, yeah I pay taxes. Special Ed Steve, our hypothetical severely mental handicapped person, does not, can not, and never will. So even if you approach this from a "what's best for society" approach it still holds.

Well that very much depends on how you measure what is best for society. I imagine that measuring it purely with taxes is likely to give results that are quite at odds with most people's values.

[Drewish]

This is n't about libertarianism. Also those public sector things I am forced to pay for, blah, blah, blah, yeah I pay taxes. Special Ed Steve, our hypothetical severely mental handicapped person, does not, can not, and never will. So even if you approach this from a "what's best for society" approach it still holds.

Well that very much depends on how you measure what is best for society. I imagine that measuring it purely with taxes is likely to give results that are quite at odds with most people's values.

Again with the, "It depends..." and contemplating about what other people's views might be. How about you put a little skin in the game and say what your position is?