Parental Consent for Tanning

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Seth
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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by Seth » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:48 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
I went on BC pills when I was 15. I knew I could talk to my parents about it, but I didn't want to. It was none of their business. And I'm happy with how that played out.
Except it was their business. They are legally and financially responsible for you until you're 18 (around here), and they can be held criminally responsible if they do not properly supervise and parent you and prevent you from harming yourself. Having sex at 15 is entirely their business because they face the legal and economic consequences of your activities, just as they do when you drive a car.

They have every right to prevent you from having sex at 15, or taking birth control, or having an abortion, because it's their ass on the line too.

Now, if you want to "divorce" your parents at 15 and become legally emancipated, then you can do what you like, provided you can convince a judge that you're mature enough to take on that responsibility. I somehow doubt that being horny and wanting some cock qualifies.

Children do not enjoy the full panoply of rights afforded to adults I'm afraid, so no, they shouldn't be permitted to get either birth control, abortions, or artificial tans without parental consent, if for no other reason than that they have an obligation not to expose their parents to liability without their consent.
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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by Seth » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:56 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
"This idea of "if a kid can talk about that sort of thing with her parents" always comes up. If that's the test, then parents are no longer parents in any respect, and they are just child support payers, since every issue arising in a child's life involves interaction with the parents. "
Coito, For many people sex is a particularly awkward subject.
So? That's no excuse for cutting parents out of such important decisions regarding their children, for whom they are legally responsible.
Even more so between parents and children. Parents and children who have a good rapport on other levels might still have difficulty broaching this subject together. I'm not saying that's how it should be-- I'm saying that's how it is.
That is as it may be, but the difficulty one might have with obtaining the consent of one's parents to sex, contraception, abortion or tanning does not relieve the child of the obligation to do so before engaging in such activities, any more than it's the child's "right" to start smoking crack just because she finds it "awkward" to discuss it with her parents. Why libertines and feminists assume that having sex is a civil right for a child is beyond me.
As for a twelve-year-old getting pregnant-- you say, "It's not just the children of bad parents who get pregnant, or are sexually active."

My comment wasn't about whether or not the parents were bad people. My comment was about the fact that getting pregnant at age twelve is unusual, in that many girls are just hitting menarche at around that age, and in that while there certainly are many kids who are sexually active that young, it's still awfully young to be having sex, even by modern American standards ( I can find research for that point, if you need it.)
Last stat I heard was that 50 percent of children under the age of 12 are sexually active, so it's hardly all that unusual it seems.
Parents who are comfortable talking about sex with their children, who talk to them about risks, who are open to questions, aren't likely, in my opinion or experience , to have a pregnant twelve-year-old daughter-- unless she was raped.
It's not a question of probabilities, it's a question of parental authority and the duties and obligations of minors to be obedient.
I can also find you research/commentary about physical development in general and cervical development in particular that support my assertion that for most girls, carrying a pregnancy to term at age 12 is dangerous. I don't have time to hunt for links now. But I think it's fairly obvious that most 12-year-olds are not ready to be parents.
Then they shouldn't be having sex, should they?
As for "16 and Pregnant"-- I think the main reason people watch that show is because they're all train wrecks. I find it depressing. And I'm going to do what I can to inform my son about safe sex early on, so hopefully he never finds himself in that fix-- whether or not he ever tells me he's sexually active. I'd like him to know he could. But I understand that for most kids, their mom is the last person they want to talk to about stuff like that-- particularly once they're a teenager.
You're being negligent if you give him opportunities to have sex because it means you are not properly parenting him and paying attention to his daily activities and who his friends are. Education is a good thing, but you're still required to actually parent your children, and if that means monitoring their activities because they cannot be trusted to keep their dick in their pants where it belongs, then that's what you have to do.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:10 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
coito wrote:I'm not sure that merely talking about it with parents reduces the likelihood of pregnancy. But, I mean just that - I'm not sure - I don't know.
http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/pare ... _tips.aspx

http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/sex ... pills.html

For a start.
No evidence there of a reduction in likelihood of pregnancy. It's parental advice, yes, but there isn't any hard data there.

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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by MrJonno » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:28 pm

The states that have 18 figured in are those that have an "age gap" provision, which basically tells older men to avoid trolling the high schools. I.e. - -like -- if the adult is over 25, and the teenager only 17, then there is too much of a gap.
Fair enough its 18 in the UK where an adult as a position of authority over the younger person but I do get the impression that how strongly its enforced is very different in the US.

Technically a 16 year old having a sex with a 15 year old is a serious crime ( its not rape statutory or otherwise) but the is the police would never get involved bar a possible warning unless it was an exceptional case. Its a legal minor protection issue and in no way a moral one. You hear stories on the net of teenagers getting years in jail for similar offences (is this an exaggeration).

Regarding abortion and contraception in an ideal world the first person someone should go to is their parents but we don't like in such a world so a doctor seems a reasonable 2nd choice. The doctor has an option of bringing in social services (without the childs consents) who themselves may bring in the police. It's a lot of responsbility but so is everything else about being a doctor
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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:32 pm

MrJonno wrote:
The states that have 18 figured in are those that have an "age gap" provision, which basically tells older men to avoid trolling the high schools. I.e. - -like -- if the adult is over 25, and the teenager only 17, then there is too much of a gap.
Fair enough its 18 in the UK where an adult as a position of authority over the younger person but I do get the impression that how strongly its enforced is very different in the US.
Where do you get this "impression?"
MrJonno wrote:
Technically a 16 year old having a sex with a 15 year old is a serious crime ( its not rape statutory or otherwise) but the is the police would never get involved bar a possible warning unless it was an exceptional case.
Not in the US, either, generally speaking.
MrJonno wrote: Its a legal minor protection issue and in no way a moral one. You hear stories on the net of teenagers getting years in jail for similar offences (is this an exaggeration).
I think it's an exaggeration.
MrJonno wrote:
Regarding abortion and contraception in an ideal world the first person someone should go to is their parents but we don't like in such a world so a doctor seems a reasonable 2nd choice. The doctor has an option of bringing in social services (without the childs consents) who themselves may bring in the police. It's a lot of responsbility but so is everything else about being a doctor
Bring in for what?

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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by MrJonno » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:00 pm

If I have 11 year old has had sex the police almost certainly would be interested , not sure if the doctor can go straight to police but he could certainly go to social services
If the patient was 15 I would be horrified if the doctor did the same thing without the childs permisson, even if that was in the 15 year old interest it wouldnt be in most 15 year olds and a doctor does have a responsibilty to society as whole (as do we all)
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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by hadespussercats » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:28 pm

I'm sorry Seth-- did you say something?
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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by Warren Dew » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:16 am

Trinity wrote:If parents brought up their children to value themselves intrinsically, to feel real, to be authentic, then there would be no need for tanning salons as kids wouldn't be totally consumed by how beautiful they have to look.
What if they're doing it for the vitamin D?

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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by Warren Dew » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:37 am

eXcommunicate wrote:As far as condoms go, I don't think there can be any reasonable expectation of parental notification, but with things like prescription drugs or invasive procedures like abortion, I think there should be parental notification. Maybe I just say that because I'm a parent and I would approach these issues with a level of open-mindedness, so my child would reasonably expect a level of trust, decorum, and understanding, and would have nothing to fear. To be consistent, there would need to be some kind of parental notification, if not consent to most of these things.
I disagree. A child who is really on good terms with the parents will talk to them about it without needing a parental notification law.

When we're thinking about the consequences of a parental notification law on abortion, the situation we should have in mind is one where the girl is afraid to talk to the parent without the law - maybe it's just an awkward subject in that family, but maybe it's that the father is an abusive drug addict whose wife left him and stuck him with the baby. In those cases, the result of the law will frequently be either that the girl decides not to have the abortion and is stuck with an unwanted pregnancy - never good for anyone, especially the resulting baby - or the parents get notified and the girl gets beaten.

And frankly, even the result the law is intended to achieve - the parents are notified, and then talk the girl out of having an abortion - is a bad idea.

Parental notification laws for abortion are stupid. Parents who need a law to get their children to tell them things they consider critical should be rethinking their parenting styles.

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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by eXcommunicate » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:50 am

Let me clarify myself a little bit after thinking about it for a while.

I think in a better world, a parental notification/consent rule or law in most of these cases would be redundant because children and parents would have open lines of communication, like I have with my oldest, and any kind of consent to things like "birth control" would be given as a matter of course and would be a mere formality.

But since we don't live in that world, I'm torn between the rights and responsibilities parents have and the rights and responsibilities of a teenager. I do think that notification/consent laws regarding things like abortion or STD prevention is a back-handed way of sneaking morality into legislation with ulterior motives. So, the question becomes difficult. I did make the distinction between a consent law regarding tanning and STD/birth control/abortion. There are medical privacy issues that come into play in the latter that aren't there with the former. So, then, yes, I would support a law requiring parental consent for their children to go to the tanning bed, but would likely not support a law requiring consent/notification for things like STD treatment, birth control, and abortion.
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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:16 pm

I find that analysis a bit difficult to follow. It seems as if you're saying that if we lived in a world where parents wouldn't say no to these things, then it would be fine to have parental involvement. However, until the parents are a rubber stamp formality, we can't have them involved?

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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by eXcommunicate » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:54 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:I find that analysis a bit difficult to follow. It seems as if you're saying that if we lived in a world where parents wouldn't say no to these things, then it would be fine to have parental involvement. However, until the parents are a rubber stamp formality, we can't have them involved?
TBH, I don't know what I was trying to say there, but I'll leave it up so others can point and laugh.
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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by MrJonno » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:11 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:I find that analysis a bit difficult to follow. It seems as if you're saying that if we lived in a world where parents wouldn't say no to these things, then it would be fine to have parental involvement. However, until the parents are a rubber stamp formality, we can't have them involved?
I think the idea is parents should help their kids with whatever they choose (but at least know that their kids are making a choice) rather than them actually making the decision for their kids
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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by Seth » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:20 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Trinity wrote:If parents brought up their children to value themselves intrinsically, to feel real, to be authentic, then there would be no need for tanning salons as kids wouldn't be totally consumed by how beautiful they have to look.
What if they're doing it for the vitamin D?
Tell them to take a pill...
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Parental Consent for Tanning

Post by Seth » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:27 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
eXcommunicate wrote:As far as condoms go, I don't think there can be any reasonable expectation of parental notification, but with things like prescription drugs or invasive procedures like abortion, I think there should be parental notification. Maybe I just say that because I'm a parent and I would approach these issues with a level of open-mindedness, so my child would reasonably expect a level of trust, decorum, and understanding, and would have nothing to fear. To be consistent, there would need to be some kind of parental notification, if not consent to most of these things.
I disagree. A child who is really on good terms with the parents will talk to them about it without needing a parental notification law.

When we're thinking about the consequences of a parental notification law on abortion, the situation we should have in mind is one where the girl is afraid to talk to the parent without the law - maybe it's just an awkward subject in that family, but maybe it's that the father is an abusive drug addict whose wife left him and stuck him with the baby. In those cases, the result of the law will frequently be either that the girl decides not to have the abortion and is stuck with an unwanted pregnancy - never good for anyone, especially the resulting baby - or the parents get notified and the girl gets beaten.

And frankly, even the result the law is intended to achieve - the parents are notified, and then talk the girl out of having an abortion - is a bad idea.

Parental notification laws for abortion are stupid. Parents who need a law to get their children to tell them things they consider critical should be rethinking their parenting styles.
This is highly judgmental of parents when the fact is that it's far more common that it's the kids who are refusing to communicate and are doing wrong, and know it, and despite having loving parents who care and are willing to discuss the matter and come to the best resolution for that child it's the teenager who is being rebellious and defiant for no better reason that that's what teenagers do from time to time, even good ones.

To imply that it's always the fault of parents when their teenagers are fractious and rebellious is naive and ignorant.

And given the number of girls and women who have suffered from PTSD, depression, and other mental illnesses including suicide after having an abortion, it's also naive and ignorant to simply assume that an abortion is a "harmless" solution to the problem of teen pregnancy. It's not. There are other solutions, including adoption or simply becoming a mother, and that is what parents are there to help the pregnant teenager decide.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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