Public school controversy over singing Muslim worship song.

[Animavore]

You said "we." You got a ferret in your pocket or what?

Yes. "We" as in just about everyone on this thread ssaid more or less what I did. I couldn't presume to speak for them after that about whether they were genuine or not.

I anyway, you just said, "Why don't I believe you?"

[Seth]

You said "we." You got a ferret in your pocket or what?

Yes. "We" as in just about everyone on this thread ssaid more or less what I did. I couldn't presume to speak for them after that about whether they were genuine or not.

I anyway, you just said, "Why don't I believe you?"

Because I was pointing out that you were attempting to speak for other atheists, which is improper. It's my experience that in such a situation, getting all het-up about religion in schools is precisely what Atheists do, at literally every opportunity. Just look at Charlou's reaction to some religious music played in a store, not a school, for proof of the generalized intolerance of Atheists. I don't think I'm too far out of line to suggest that most people here are of that ilk, and I also suspect that many of them would be proud to admit it.

You may be an exception to the rule, which is what I was pointing out.

[Animavore]

You said "we." You got a ferret in your pocket or what?

Yes. "We" as in just about everyone on this thread ssaid more or less what I did. I couldn't presume to speak for them after that about whether they were genuine or not.

I anyway, you just said, "Why don't I believe you?"

Because I was pointing out that you were attempting to speak for other atheists, which is improper. It's my experience that in such a situation, getting all het-up about religion in schools is precisely what Atheists do, at literally every opportunity. Just look at Charlou's reaction to some religious music played in a store, not a school, for proof of the generalized intolerance of Atheists. I don't think I'm too far out of line to suggest that most people here are of that ilk, and I also suspect that many of them would be proud to admit it.

You may be an exception to the rule, which is what I was pointing out.

Well in fairness, I didn't see why Charlou was bothered. But then, as a person with particular and peculiar music tastes who detests pop music but has to endure it every where I go I'm conditioned by now to not even notice what songs are playing, be it in a pub or supermarket, except when something I approve of comes on. Then I'm like, 'Yeah!' The rest goes right over my head.

I have no opinion on whether she was in the right to do that or not though.

[hadespussercats]

Choirs tend to sing songs they find interesting, or challenging, or that they think will entertain their audience. Presumably that's why this song came to their attention. Music is either entertaining (subjective to the listener, of course) or it isn't. It's a fun composition, taking words (presumably) from some ancient myths and putting them to music typical of the region they come from. Would a Nordic Saga set to music be any different?

If this guy quits the choir because this song is about a different imaginary friend to his favourite, then that's his problem.

Or they could've picked a tribal African song, a Tibetan monk piece, a Norweigen folk song about trolls... etc. Or even a crappy, soul-less Catholic/CoE song. Choirs should be learning as many styles from around the world from as many cultures as possible.

And I agree with eXcommunicate's posts up to this point, as well.

Choral music by its very nature lends itself to religious texts. Across cultures, this tends to be true. If religious music is off-limits, then young singers miss out on the best of the canon. It's all shoddy arrangements of Top 40 music re-written to take out the sexy parts from there on in.

I think a commitment on the part of teachers to offer up music from a variety of cultures is important, not only to make clear that indoctrination isn't an instructional goal, but also because different cultures offer up different challenges for a music student to master. So it's great this class has the chance to sing a really interesting piece.

[Coito ergo sum]

Seth, I didn't ask or insist or demand that the music be turned off, I stated my opinion about it and the manager turned it off.

Your opinion is a selfish, intolerant, arrogant one that disrespects the rights of the majority to listen to religious music in public places during a religious celebration season. You don't like it, wear earplugs or get another job. You have no right whatsoever to be free "from" religion in either public or private spaces.

I don't like rap music, but I wouldn't presume to object to the owners of a hip-hop music store or culturally ethnic clothing store (or any other store for that matter) to play it. I'd keep my opinion to myself and go shop somewhere else if I found it offensive.

Wait a second, Seth.

Her opinion is no more selfish, intolerant or arrogant than the opinion of the person who likes that sort of music, or the opinion of the store manager who decided on the music selection in the first place.

People aren't required to keep their opinions to themselves. If they were, one of the first opinions to keep to yourself would be the one you just expressed, in my view.

[Animavore]

Seth, I didn't ask or insist or demand that the music be turned off, I stated my opinion about it and the manager turned it off.

Your opinion is a selfish, intolerant, arrogant one that disrespects the rights of the majority to listen to religious music in public places during a religious celebration season. You don't like it, wear earplugs or get another job. You have no right whatsoever to be free "from" religion in either public or private spaces.

I don't like rap music, but I wouldn't presume to object to the owners of a hip-hop music store or culturally ethnic clothing store (or any other store for that matter) to play it. I'd keep my opinion to myself and go shop somewhere else if I found it offensive.

Wait a second, Seth.

Her opinion is no more selfish, intolerant or arrogant than the opinion of the person who likes that sort of music, or the opinion of the store manager who decided on the music selection in the first place.

People aren't required to keep their opinions to themselves. If they were, one of the first opinions to keep to yourself would be the one you just expressed, in my view.

Well there';s definately people out there who make others suffer their music under the false pretense that because they like it everyone else should. It's why teens are so annoying

[Seth]

Seth, I didn't ask or insist or demand that the music be turned off, I stated my opinion about it and the manager turned it off.

Your opinion is a selfish, intolerant, arrogant one that disrespects the rights of the majority to listen to religious music in public places during a religious celebration season. You don't like it, wear earplugs or get another job. You have no right whatsoever to be free "from" religion in either public or private spaces.

I don't like rap music, but I wouldn't presume to object to the owners of a hip-hop music store or culturally ethnic clothing store (or any other store for that matter) to play it. I'd keep my opinion to myself and go shop somewhere else if I found it offensive.

Wait a second, Seth.

Her opinion is no more selfish, intolerant or arrogant than the opinion of the person who likes that sort of music, or the opinion of the store manager who decided on the music selection in the first place.

Sure it is, she's an Atheist.

People aren't required to keep their opinions to themselves. If they were, one of the first opinions to keep to yourself would be the one you just expressed, in my view.

Indeed. Precisely. I have every right to excoriate her as being selfish and arrogant in the same way as she has a right to complain about religious music. And you have a right to excoriate me for excoriating her. Sauce, goose, gander.

It's just that I choose to excoriate her for her selfish and arrogant complaint because, well, somebody has to do it and it's not like Atheists don't deserve to be excoriated for their intolerance, bigotry, hatred, lies, selfishness, arrogance and disrespect.

If you dish it out, you have to take it.

[HomerJay]

Choral music by its very nature lends itself to religious texts. Across cultures, this tends to be true. If religious music is off-limits, then young singers miss out on the best of the canon. It's all shoddy arrangements of Top 40 music re-written to take out the sexy parts from there on in.

I think a commitment on the part of teachers to offer up music from a variety of cultures is important, not only to make clear that indoctrination isn't an instructional goal, but also because different cultures offer up different challenges for a music student to master. So it's great this class has the chance to sing a really interesting piece.

It seems strange to say we must suspend all critical faculties and value systems just because something is set to music.

Religion ain't culture, it's religion. The reason things are called religion or culture is so that we can distinquish between the two, otherwise we would call it all the same word - bananasoufflé.

I guess if the KKK started a barber shop quartet you'd say the same thing? "It's great this class has the chance to sing a really interesting piece"

[Coito ergo sum]

Seth, I didn't ask or insist or demand that the music be turned off, I stated my opinion about it and the manager turned it off.

Your opinion is a selfish, intolerant, arrogant one that disrespects the rights of the majority to listen to religious music in public places during a religious celebration season. You don't like it, wear earplugs or get another job. You have no right whatsoever to be free "from" religion in either public or private spaces.

I don't like rap music, but I wouldn't presume to object to the owners of a hip-hop music store or culturally ethnic clothing store (or any other store for that matter) to play it. I'd keep my opinion to myself and go shop somewhere else if I found it offensive.

Wait a second, Seth.

Her opinion is no more selfish, intolerant or arrogant than the opinion of the person who likes that sort of music, or the opinion of the store manager who decided on the music selection in the first place.

Sure it is, she's an Atheist.

The record for intolerance and arrogance is still held by the religious. Nobody can hold a candle to them. Thankfully, in the West, religion has been relatively de-fanged. We have but to look to the Muslim world, and see the true specter of arrogance and intolerance -- a shade of what western religion once was, and what we must steadfastly guard against.

People aren't required to keep their opinions to themselves. If they were, one of the first opinions to keep to yourself would be the one you just expressed, in my view.

Indeed. Precisely. I have every right to excoriate her as being selfish and arrogant in the same way as she has a right to complain about religious music. And you have a right to excoriate me for excoriating her. Sauce, goose, gander.

Yes, and her opinion so voiced is not selfish, intolerant or arrogant. Yours is.

It's just that I choose to excoriate her for her selfish and arrogant complaint because, well, somebody has to do it and it's not like Atheists don't deserve to be excoriated for their intolerance, bigotry, hatred, lies, selfishness, arrogance and disrespect.

If you dish it out, you have to take it.

Believe me, nobody doubts your ability to dish it out, or the ability of religious folks to dish it out. They've been dishing it out for thousands of years, and they never miss an opportunity for intolerance/bigotry (anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-apostate, anti-sex, anti-you name it), lies (hell, hades, gehenna, routes to salvation, etc.), arrogance (WE know the way, the truth and the light, and there is only one true.....), and disrespect (you just showed it).

Selfishness, they aren't always - since there are a lot of religious folks who can be charitable. I'll give 'em that one.

[hadespussercats]

Choral music by its very nature lends itself to religious texts. Across cultures, this tends to be true. If religious music is off-limits, then young singers miss out on the best of the canon. It's all shoddy arrangements of Top 40 music re-written to take out the sexy parts from there on in.

I think a commitment on the part of teachers to offer up music from a variety of cultures is important, not only to make clear that indoctrination isn't an instructional goal, but also because different cultures offer up different challenges for a music student to master. So it's great this class has the chance to sing a really interesting piece.

It seems strange to say we must suspend all critical faculties and value systems just because something is set to music.

Religion ain't culture, it's religion. The reason things are called religion or culture is so that we can distinquish between the two, otherwise we would call it all the same word - bananasoufflé.

I guess if the KKK started a barber shop quartet you'd say the same thing? "It's great this class has the chance to sing a really interesting piece"

I don't see a Muslim song of worship as being the same sort of thing as what I imagine a KKK barbershop tune to be like. Just because a song references imaginary things doesn't mean it's hateful.

Religion is part of culture. Choral music often overlaps culture and religion. In the same way I think it would be ridiculous for an Art History class to be disallowed from considering religious art, I think it's ridiculous to expect a school choir to be disallowed from performing religious music.

Incidentally, I do think there could be a place in a class for listening to a musical piece by the KKK, as part of a historical study. But my attitude about that is probably in the minority, and I'm fine with that.

[hadespussercats]

Okay, I need to pause for a moment to change hats...

redunderthebed, this is a reminder from the staff that personal attacks, like this one: http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 2#p1125812 are against forum rules, as described here: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 9#personal . Thanks.

All right, carry on, carry on.

[HomerJay]

I don't see a Muslim song of worship as being the same sort of thing as what I imagine a KKK barbershop tune to be like. Just because a song references imaginary things doesn't mean it's hateful.

Religion is part of culture. Choral music often overlaps culture and religion. In the same way I think it would be ridiculous for an Art History class to be disallowed from considering religious art, I think it's ridiculous to expect a school choir to be disallowed from performing religious music.

I think part of the problem here is that we have become so inured to the pervasiveness of religion that it has become second nature, 'natural' to us, and it's very difficult to extract ourselves from it.

Many religions have enjoyed such a monocultural existence that it seems we cannot separate them from the culture we live in.

The point about Allah as the destroyer of other gods is particularly relevant here, as in the middle east the pre-islamic polytheistic beliefs have been completely irradicated and Saudi continues this persecution of polytheists to this day.

So there is a danger that songs that glorify the hegemony Islam has achieved are glorifying the destruction of competitive ideologies. In a world in which christianity and islam have both achieved this monoculture we have forgotten the struggle that has gone before.

The problem with promoting religion in schools is how to avoid the twin dangers of proselytism and exclusivity, promoting more than one religion doesn't solve these problems it simply seems to ameliorate them, whilst actually reinforcing their collective hegemony.

[hadespussercats]

We need more great secular choral music.

[eXcommunicate]

I'm with Ani - after reading the lyrics, there's nothing in there you wouldn't get in any religious song. And the point of it was to practice a song from a different style/culture, so it's the kid's problem if he finds it offensive.

Thought experiment:

What if a Muslim student objected to "Onward Christian Soldiers?" Same result? Different?

A student can "object" anything they want to. A student could "object" to a song praising Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection.

But as a learning exercise, in a music class room, religiously-themed music must be approached and studied. There is no way around it, especially in a choral setting.

Again, I ask you, do you think a high school band should be banned from playing Holsinger's Ballet Sacra or a high school orchestra from playing Beethoven's Ode to Joy because of their distinctly religious themes?

[HomerJay]

But as a learning exercise, in a music class room, religiously-themed music must be approached and studied. There is no way around it, especially in a choral setting.

Have you estimated the proportion of religious to non-religious music available?

I would have thought at least 99% of available (english, singing) music is non-religious.