Panorama - Poor America

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Panorama - Poor America

Post by PsychoSerenity » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:31 pm

I've just seen this on iPlayer and found a youtube for people outside the UK. It's a documentary on the state of the poor in America.



It's always deeply saddening for me to see anyone in these kind of situations, but I also get the feeling that this documentary is from a very BBC/UK perspective, so I'm interested to hear what Americans think of it.

And Coito, because I feel I have to preempt you here, I'm not attacking America and I'm sure there are plenty of people in Europe in similar situations.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by Warren Dew » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:38 am

What it's showing about the homeless is likely pretty accurate. Certainly I've seen a lot more homeless begging on the streets since Obama took office. I think the overall numbers are still pretty low, but they seem to be growing.

The political commentary is kind of cherry picked from a leftist perspective. The "conservative" figure is talking about the traditional American welfare dependents who make a living off of knowing how to work the system, and don't even try to hold down legal jobs. Those people are Obama's core constituency, and they're doing pretty well, as various welfare programs have been expanded. And of course the conservatives here are in opposition; they have little or no influence on policy anyway.

The poor this video is showing are a different kind of poor, though. This video is showing people who have middle class values and background, but have lost their jobs and homes due in large part to Obama's economic policies. They still continue to work at whatever jobs they can find - handing out flyers as one couple does, part time construction work for another man - making them ineligible for many welfare programs.

The stuff about Obamacare not hitting until 2013 or 2014 is also rather bogus. Many requirements are already hitting; for example, the private small business group that I used to get my health care through is already prohibited from offering that health care any more. Obamacare requirements have also caused the supply of stable jobs to contract substantially - except for companies like McDonald's which have negotiated waivers from the requirements.

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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by amused » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:22 pm

Las Vegas is not the capital of capitalism, that would be Wall Street in NYC. Vegas is the froth capital, the place where excess capital is flaunted for no reason other than it can. Until it runs out, which hit Vegas particularly hard after 7 years of pumping the economy by inflating real estate values. Obama policies have *zero* to do with it because it takes time for any economy to recover after a big run up, particularly a run up based on the expectation that it will keep running up. Vegas has extremely high unemployment and foreclosures in comparison to the rest of the country because its economy is based on the froth of the national economy. When that goes, so goes Vegas.

I couldn't get past the first few minutes because it was clear that the reporter doesn't understand the basics of why Vegas is an extreme example.

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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by Jesus_of_Nazareth » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:30 pm

When I heard the 6 yo girl saying she had eaten rat.........I thought of Seth.

FWIW I wasn't particularly shocked by the programme - that's how the USA is meant to be. and the locals seem to like it that way.

Well, maybe not the one eating rat - but as a 6yo she can't vote. and will probably be dead before 18.

Oh, and the construction worker who had his intenstines poking out of his asshole (no pics) - $20k to fix. Could as well been $1 million......I wonder how his story will work out.
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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by kiki5711 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:13 pm

that's only Vegas which always makes me wonder why people gamble their money away, and basically "give" it away to casino owners that are rich beyond their means already.

I'd rather wipe my ass with the money than give it away gambling.

this thing about "Obama made it worse with his policies and made them homeless" is so distorted I can't believe people are actually saying it. For a country as big as USA, it cannot possibly take only 3-4 years for it to get in such a bad economic condition------ even if you tried.

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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by eXcommunicate » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:19 pm

Warren Dew wrote:...
:blah:
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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by Bella Fortuna » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:30 pm

amused wrote:Las Vegas is not the capital of capitalism, that would be Wall Street in NYC. Vegas is the froth capital, the place where excess capital is flaunted for no reason other than it can. Until it runs out, which hit Vegas particularly hard after 7 years of pumping the economy by inflating real estate values. Obama policies have *zero* to do with it because it takes time for any economy to recover after a big run up, particularly a run up based on the expectation that it will keep running up. Vegas has extremely high unemployment and foreclosures in comparison to the rest of the country because its economy is based on the froth of the national economy. When that goes, so goes Vegas.

I couldn't get past the first few minutes because it was clear that the reporter doesn't understand the basics of why Vegas is an extreme example.
This was the first thing I thought as well.

Additionally, the insinuation that the Vegas storm drain homeless are a result of Obama is ludicrous. I remember hearing this story on NPR the year Obama was elected, 2008: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=97800190
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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by Warren Dew » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:43 pm

Bella Fortuna wrote:Additionally, the insinuation that the Vegas storm drain homeless are a result of Obama is ludicrous. I remember hearing this story on NPR the year Obama was elected, 2008: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=97800190
There's a big difference between 2 people and 400 people.

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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:49 pm

There is something wrong with that video.

First point I noticed:

1. Man says, "no job, no money, no doctor..." -- that just is not true. If he has no job and no money, he is eligible, flat out, for 100% coverage under Medicaid. He just needs to apply: https://dhcfp.nv.gov/index.htm - that's it.

2. Nevada provides low income (including no income) and moderate-income housing assistance. http://www.snvrha.org/how-to-apply.htm - those people with no money and no job -- they absolutely qualify for free housing, until they acquire income, and then they may have to pay something which is income related.

3. Nevada of course participates in the "Food Stamp" program, which for people with no and low income provides hundreds of dollars per month for food and sundries. http://www.nccp.org/profiles/NV_profile_29.html

4. 3 or 4 hundred people, she says? Did anyone inquire of any of them why they aren't availing themselves of public benefits?

5. The "well-paid tiler" who swapped his middle class life for the drain because he lost his job. O.k. - he has zero income. Why isn't he availing himself of public benefits -- he and his girlfriend could walk over to the city-county building and get the information they need to be set up with housing, medical care and food allotments until they get back on their feet.

6. "Rick" didn't qualify for unemployment pay? Why not? Why no explanation for that? If you lose your job, rather than quit, you're almost always eligible for unemployment. The only other reason would be if you aren't looking for work, or if you were fired for theft or other serious misconduct. Each of the stories has these little oddities about them. Something fishy about this video.

7. The video becomes insanely partisan about 10 minutes in.

8. The video basically involves extreme anecdotes that do not appear representative. At 12 minutes in they're interviewing a very well-fed looking boy with blond hair who claims to go to bed hungry "often." And, then the next girl seems to be acting coached when she says her mom ate a "rat." Look - in the US in general and Nevada in particular there are government agencies that would move these children into foster care because they are being neglected. Someone seems to be derelict in their duty to report these incidents to social services. It's either that, or the video is exaggerated bullshit, and I'm leaning toward the latter. Fuck, wehave federal agents coming in and inspecting the lunches of children bringing food from home and forcing them to eat school provided lunches if they're not adequate, and nobody is doing anything about kids eating rats or nothing at all? Again - something smells fishy about this video.

9. Then the video claims that "food shortages are widespread." Well, that's not true. It's not true at all, and it's plain to me -- having watched half the video, but I have no time to watch the rest at the moment, that this video is just poor journalism at best, and at worst it is agenda-driven nonsense.

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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by FBM » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:06 pm

I also noted some details that seemed to be missing, CES. I think the couple living in the flood drain were meth heads, for instance. And regardless of where I stand on the political issues, I don't appreciate biased reporting and sensationalism.
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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:24 pm

FBM wrote:I also noted some details that seemed to be missing, CES. I think the couple living in the flood drain were meth heads, for instance. And regardless of where I stand on the political issues, I don't appreciate biased reporting and sensationalism.
I agree. I am not against public assistance.

But reports like that one paint the picture that there is no public assistance. The programs I linked to aren't articles about available programs - they are links to the government agencies providing those programs. When the reporter interviews someone who says "I have no money, and I make no money, so I can't get medical care, or food" -- that statement is just, well, plain factually inaccurate. There is a lot of public assistance available for such a person.

I can understand that reduced mental faculties and drug issues can bend a person's mind so they aren't able to do even the smallest things to help themselves, but I think it is a far, far, gross, overstatement - a complete falsehood - to suggest that "poverty in America" is represented by that Panorama video. For the video to be accurate, there must not be any assistance available for a jobless, penniless destitute person to get food, shelter and medical care. That is demonstrably and inarguably not the case. Such assistance is readily available.

When I looked at the faces of the two living in the drain, my first reaction was "drugs, probably meth." I suspect you are correct on that point.

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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by eXcommunicate » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:07 pm

Why isn't he availing himself of public benefits
- Ignorance of public benefits. There is a lot of this out there.
- Pride. There is a lot of this out there too.
- Mental health issues. Higher in homeless populations.
Fuck, wehave federal agents coming in and inspecting the lunches of children bringing food from home and forcing them to eat school provided lunches if they're not adequate
Are you somewhat exaggerating here or is this a thing?
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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by Warren Dew » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:50 pm

Jesus_of_Nazareth wrote:When I heard the 6 yo girl saying she had eaten rat.........I thought of Seth.
I thought of my mother, whose family had to resort to eating rat a few times in the 1930s. Welcome to the fourth turning.

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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:54 pm

eXcommunicate wrote:
Why isn't he availing himself of public benefits
- Ignorance of public benefits. There is a lot of this out there.
Certainly there likely is. However, that would not be an indictment on the US being the "richest country in the world," and yet there is poverty. The public benefits are out there. Perhaps it's not a function of unfeeling capitalism, but a function of the government failing to properly publicize the benefits?
eXcommunicate wrote:
- Pride. There is a lot of this out there too.
It doesn't appear that the people depicted in the video had such pride. They were being portrayed as needing, but not getting, a handout.
eXcommunicate wrote: - Mental health issues. Higher in homeless populations.
Very true, and mental disabilities and drug addiction and abuse probably account for most of the 300 to 400 discussed in the video.
eXcommunicate wrote:
Fuck, wehave federal agents coming in and inspecting the lunches of children bringing food from home and forcing them to eat school provided lunches if they're not adequate
Are you somewhat exaggerating here or is this a thing?
No. There were two incidents of this occurring recently reported in the news.

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Re: Panorama - Poor America

Post by eXcommunicate » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:56 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
eXcommunicate wrote:
Why isn't he availing himself of public benefits
- Ignorance of public benefits. There is a lot of this out there.
Certainly there likely is. However, that would not be an indictment on the US being the "richest country in the world," and yet there is poverty. The public benefits are out there. Perhaps it's not a function of unfeeling capitalism, but a function of the government failing to properly publicize the benefits?
I think these programs are in place in opposition to many ardent capitalists. A few are on this very board.

But yeah, the gov't does do a piss poor job of making these benefits known.
eXcommunicate wrote:
- Pride. There is a lot of this out there too.
It doesn't appear that the people depicted in the video had such pride. They were being portrayed as needing, but not getting, a handout.
All right. I didn't really watch the video, so that's probably true for many in the video. But in the wider poor or unemployed population, "pride" is certainly a real reason why many don't seek help.
eXcommunicate wrote: - Mental health issues. Higher in homeless populations.
Very true, and mental disabilities and drug addiction and abuse probably account for most of the 300 to 400 discussed in the video.
Very likely. Most poor people who are not mentally disabled or wracked by drug addiction can figure out a better position for themselves and their children than a storm drain.
eXcommunicate wrote:
Fuck, wehave federal agents coming in and inspecting the lunches of children bringing food from home and forcing them to eat school provided lunches if they're not adequate
Are you somewhat exaggerating here or is this a thing?
No. There were two incidents of this occurring recently reported in the news.
Seems kind of odd. Are these "random acts of Federal food policing" or an actual policy?
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