Bideford Town Council prayers ruled unlawful

[Atheist-Lite]

Bideford Town Council prayers ruled unlawful

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-16980025

A Devon town council acted unlawfully by allowing prayers to be said before meetings, the High Court has ruled.

Action was brought against Bideford Town Council by the National Secular Society (NSS) after atheist councillor Clive Bone complained.

Mr Justice Ouseley ruled the prayers were not lawful under section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972.

The judgement is being seen as a test case which could affect local councils across England and Wales.

Mr Justice Ouseley said the prayers were unlawful because there was no statutory power permitting the practice to continue.

'Bizarre' ruling

The NSS had argued that the "inappropriate" ritual breached articles 9 and 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which protect an individual's right to freedom of conscience and not to face discrimination.

The society said prayers had no place in "a secular environment concerned with civic business".

However the case was not won on human rights grounds, but on a point of statutory construction of local government legislation.

Speaking after Friday's outcome, Simon Calvert, of the Christian Institute, described the ruling as "bizarre".

(continued)

[klr]

Crumple! You're posting ... good news????

[Atheist-Lite]

Crumple! You're posting ... good news????

They are all into wicca over that way. This is hardly a victory for the forces of light. People outside the council chamber are chanting devon giberish even as we speak.

[Trinity]

I wish they would do that in schools. I remember having fisticuffs with my eldest daughter's primary school because I wasn't happy for her to be praying in assembly and before lunch. She was coming home saying "God made this, God did that" and it made me furious. I have always encouraged my children to think independently and to question what others say and not to just absorb it de facto. The school in question was not outwardly advertised as one with a religious bias but it was obviously Christian. I asked for my child to be allowed to skip any prayer gatherings and the school scoffed and claimed that she would feel excluded and she would not receive a rounded education. Red flag to me. It was a short time later that I took her out (for other reasons too) and home tutored before finding another suitable school. What is it with these schools, that they feel they have a right to bias children's vulnerable minds and the parents don't seem to care one way or another? They all want sheep, I guess.

[klr]

I wish they would do that in schools. I remember having fisticuffs with my eldest daughter's primary school because I wasn't happy for her to be praying in assembly and before lunch. She was coming home saying "God made this, God did that" and it made me furious. I have always encouraged my children to think independently and to question what others say and not to just absorb it de facto. The school in question was not outwardly advertised as one with a religious bias but it was obviously Christian. I asked for my child to be allowed to skip any prayer gatherings and the school scoffed and claimed that she would feel excluded and she would not receive a rounded education. Red flag to me. It was a short time later that I took her out (for other reasons too) and home tutored before finding another suitable school. What is it with these schools, that they feel they have a right to bias children's vulnerable minds and the parents don't seem to care one way or another? They all want sheep, I guess.

Get 'em while they're young - "give me the child for seven years", and all that.

[Atheist-Lite]

I wish they would do that in schools. I remember having fisticuffs with my eldest daughter's primary school because I wasn't happy for her to be praying in assembly and before lunch. She was coming home saying "God made this, God did that" and it made me furious. I have always encouraged my children to think independently and to question what others say and not to just absorb it de facto. The school in question was not outwardly advertised as one with a religious bias but it was obviously Christian. I asked for my child to be allowed to skip any prayer gatherings and the school scoffed and claimed that she would feel excluded and she would not receive a rounded education. Red flag to me. It was a short time later that I took her out (for other reasons too) and home tutored before finding another suitable school. What is it with these schools, that they feel they have a right to bias children's vulnerable minds and the parents don't seem to care one way or another? They all want sheep, I guess.

Get 'em while they're young - "give me the child for seven years", and all that.

Doesn't work in every case and the deeper question is are they the kind of atheists you want? Ones who simply accept there is no God without something social & real to rebel against in their formative years?

[Trinity]

I wish they would do that in schools. I remember having fisticuffs with my eldest daughter's primary school because I wasn't happy for her to be praying in assembly and before lunch. She was coming home saying "God made this, God did that" and it made me furious. I have always encouraged my children to think independently and to question what others say and not to just absorb it de facto. The school in question was not outwardly advertised as one with a religious bias but it was obviously Christian. I asked for my child to be allowed to skip any prayer gatherings and the school scoffed and claimed that she would feel excluded and she would not receive a rounded education. Red flag to me. It was a short time later that I took her out (for other reasons too) and home tutored before finding another suitable school. What is it with these schools, that they feel they have a right to bias children's vulnerable minds and the parents don't seem to care one way or another? They all want sheep, I guess.

Get 'em while they're young - "give me the child for seven years", and all that.

Doesn't work in every case and the deeper question is are they the kind of atheists you want? Ones who simply accept there is no God without something social & real to rebel against in their formative years?

To be honest, I am not an atheist, if anything I am agnostic, but I have never wanted to put myself in a box; I have my own philosophies which change and grow as I change and grow. The same goes for my children; I don't label them as atheists, agnostics or anything else- they are free to think and believe/not believe in what they wish-I simply encourage them to question, to find their own truths and to provide them with information when needed and when they ask for my opinion, I give it but I stress clearly that it is MY opinion and my truth and they don't have to take that on board just because I'm their mother. I'm sure they'll have plenty else to rebel against growing up, just the fact that I'm mum is enough!!!! I'm already experiencing that "I love you/don't need you/" thing from my eldest daughter. She strongly wants autonomy yet still needs the boundaries!

[Rum]

Unusual for the UK for people to get their knickers in a twist about this sort of thing. Most people here are meh about religion to begin with.

[Ronja]

Crumple! You're posting ... good news????

.

[Pappa]

I wish they would do that in schools. I remember having fisticuffs with my eldest daughter's primary school because I wasn't happy for her to be praying in assembly and before lunch. She was coming home saying "God made this, God did that" and it made me furious. I have always encouraged my children to think independently and to question what others say and not to just absorb it de facto. The school in question was not outwardly advertised as one with a religious bias but it was obviously Christian. I asked for my child to be allowed to skip any prayer gatherings and the school scoffed and claimed that she would feel excluded and she would not receive a rounded education. Red flag to me. It was a short time later that I took her out (for other reasons too) and home tutored before finding another suitable school. What is it with these schools, that they feel they have a right to bias children's vulnerable minds and the parents don't seem to care one way or another? They all want sheep, I guess.

Schools in England and Wales are obliged by law to conduct religious assemblies that are "broadly Christian". In England at least, schools that don't uphold their obligation lose points on Ofsted inspections.

[Thinking Aloud]

... And it's the fear that kids will feel "excluded" that prompts to many parents to continue to let it happen. After all, when all the other kids are singing "Jubilate Everybody", you wouldn't want yours to be sitting in a corridor wondering what they'd done wrong, now, would you?

[Svartalf]

Wait, prayers in political institutions are illegal in a country that has an official state religion?

I'd like to have access to all the relevant statutes, but unless the prayers were muslim or buddhist, or led by a notorious non-anglican, yeah, there is a tinge of bizarre in the flavor.

[Ronja]

... And it's the fear that kids will feel "excluded" that prompts to many parents to continue to let it happen. After all, when all the other kids are singing "Jubilate Everybody", you wouldn't want yours to be sitting in a corridor wondering what they'd done wrong, now, would you?

And it is a real problem. Especially in daycare and especially with Younger Daughter, who has always spoken her mind very directly, there was a lot of "Oh mom! But why?!" when we did not allow them to join the other kids who were singing with "the nice lady from the congregation". Things got easier in primary school, where they have other kids in their ethics class and do not need to feel like the only different ones. And it helps that their headmaster is one of the most boring people ever, so getting to skip at least some morning assemblies is a relief for them.

[HomerJay]

Schools in England and Wales are obliged by law to conduct religious assemblies that are "broadly Christian". In England at least, schools that don't uphold their obligation lose points on Ofsted inspections.

They can apply for a Determination, usually on the grounds of insufficient Christians, to avoid a broadly Christian assembly.

[Rum]

Looks like fat boy Pickles is fighting back. He says by this time next week the decision will be reversed by legislation (not on the web yet). He is a nasty piece of work even if he does look like a buffoon:-