Illegal Immigrants in the United Kingdom

[Coito ergo sum]

From what I've seen on the internet most the people who object to these laws are Americans themselves who don't want America to become like evil police state Europe not Europeans.

Lots of Europeans countries require ID cards to be carried which while I wouldnt be happy about this doesn't even become close to being a police state.

Whats this about illegal immigrants wanting driving licenses anyway why don't they just drive without one which is what most illegals do in the UK (applying for one is a good way of getting caught)

Actually, strangely enough, those that object to the immigration laws such as Californians are either American liberals, who typically point towards western European countries as the idea, or Europeans themselves. In the case of the other thread, it was maiforpeace, who is the former category, and Huxley, the latter. We'll see if either of them come here and describe the British rules as "garbage" and "shit" and all the other terms used to describe the proposed California law. Huxlely actually suggested I create another thread, because pointing out that the proposed California law only proposed things that every other western democracy already does was not appropriate since the thread was about California.

Well, it was pointed out on the California thread that not issuing them drivers licenses is a danger to the community at large, and we should issue them drivers licenses and ignore the fact that they are illegal in the first place because to have immigration laws enforced is apparently not "sharing" and lacking in all empathy, if not out and out racism.

[Coito ergo sum]

No problems, then, I suppose with British immigration....

....police can verify citizenship....great idea!
....immigrants must apply to get in, and qualify, or they can't come....sounds reasonable..
...no eligibility for driving licenses....pretty reasonable, after all, they are illegal...
...no entitlement to public health benefits.... sounds reasonable...
...no free college, and no entitlement to even go to a British college....well, because they are illegal...
...if they come into custody of law enforcement, they will be processed and deported....

Well, the UK seems to have a sensible system going there.

Try to do the same thing in the US, and....garbage! Shit! racist! Selfish! Don't you teach your children to share!? http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 22&t=35056

So, which is it, everyone? What do you think? Is it o.k. for California to pass a law to be more British-like? Or, ought the Brits start sharing, and pay for college educations for illegals, give them driving licenses, and allow anyone who sneaked in illegally to stay permanently?

[MrJonno]

Driving licenses for illegal immigrants is so absurd its a joke.

Now there are serious questions regarding amnesty for illegals but thats more a moral versus a practical issue. As in its not very moral to give people citzenship who didnt apply legally while you give a hard time to those who do but that has to be considered versus the consequences of having millions of people with no status in your country who you can't possiible catch (something the UK doesnt have on anything like the scale).

The other thing I find amazing about the US is you grant citizenship to anyone born in the country, don't think many countries do that the UK certainly doesnt

[Coito ergo sum]

Driving licenses for illegal immigrants is so absurd its a joke.

According to Mai and Hux, it's a public safety hazard that they're not given driving licenses, and that it is evidence of an uncaring, unsharing society....

Now there are serious questions regarding amnesty for illegals but thats more a moral versus a practical issue. As in its not very moral to give people citzenship who didnt apply legally while you give a hard time to those who do but that has to be considered versus the consequences of having millions of people with no status in your country who you can't possiible catch (something the UK doesnt have on anything like the scale).

There you have a huge point. And, that's why a sensible immigration policy is need, and an overhaul of US immigration law is long overdue. People will need to be allowed to stay, but not everyone.

The other thing I find amazing about the US is you grant citizenship to anyone born in the country, don't think many countries do that the UK certainly doesnt

Yes, very true. In fact, the US has among the loosest immigration policies and easiest official immigration procedures in the world. And, we take disproportionately more immigrants than our population would warrant - vastly disproportionate. 1 in 5 of the worlds immigrants immigrate tot he US. 1 in 5. That's huge. That's what pisses me off so much about this issue. To have people suggest that the US is evil in this regard, and that anyone who opposes even modest proposals that every other western democracy already has, and have traditionally had, is "selfish," or "racist," just pisses me the fuck off. If another sanctimonious finger is pointed at me, suggesting that I'm anti-immigrant because I dare to suggest that I not be asked to chip in to pay an illegal immigrant's college education, I mean - I may snap.

[MrJonno]

Yes, very true. In fact, the US has among the loosest immigration policies and easiest official immigration procedures in the world. And, we take disproportionately more immigrants than our population would warrant - vastly disproportionate. 1 in 5 of the worlds immigrants immigrate tot he US. 1 in 5. That's huge. That's what pisses me off so much about this issue. To have people suggest that the US is evil in this regard, and that anyone who opposes even modest proposals that every other western democracy already has, and have traditionally had, is "selfish," or "racist," just pisses me the fuck off. If another sanctimonious finger is pointed at me, suggesting that I'm anti-immigrant because I dare to suggest that I not be asked to chip in to pay an illegal immigrant's college education, I mean - I may snap.

Not convinced on that 1 in 5 figure but I suppose it depends on how you describe immigrates. Most refugees are in Africa going from one part to another. If you mean people who have specifically choosen to legally emmigrate for economic reasons then that sounds more reasonable.

I think American immigration must be specific to this forum, most people I meet in real life are horrified by US gun and health policy (including me) but no one has ever mentioned immigration (too busy slagging of our own policy generally for being too liberal when of course its not)

[Audley Strange]

You know what CES? It used to annoy me that you would attempt to have a go at Europeans as one homogeneous group, but lately I think you are onto something. We in Europe do often seem to treat the U.S. like some it's some kind of butler/garbageman to clean up after us, dump our unwanted and rectify our centuries old mistakes. That's wrong certainl We treat you with the same contempt and admiration we do your media.

Still as a country you have to take some blame for bombarding the world with 60 years of propaganda and ideological swill that allowed us to come to that conclusion. I'd hazard a guess that the predominant image of your culture would be a man with a gun seeking revenge. Not a great symbol. [/end drunken rambling]

[Pappa]

You know what CES? It used to annoy me that you would attempt to have a go at Europeans as one homogeneous group, but lately I think you are onto something. We in Europe do often seem to treat the U.S. like some it's some kind of butler/garbageman to clean up after us, dump our unwanted and rectify our centuries old mistakes. That's wrong certainl We treat you with the same contempt and admiration we do your media.

Still as a country you have to take some blame for bombarding the world with 60 years of propaganda and ideological swill that allowed us to come to that conclusion. I'd hazard a guess that the predominant image of your culture would be a man with a gun seeking revenge. Not a great symbol. [/end drunken rambling]

I think it's easy to be critical of America when you don't have any first hand experience of Americans. I know my view of the country and it's people has changed a lot since I started getting to know Americans online a few years ago.

[Audley Strange]

You know what CES? It used to annoy me that you would attempt to have a go at Europeans as one homogeneous group, but lately I think you are onto something. We in Europe do often seem to treat the U.S. like some it's some kind of butler/garbageman to clean up after us, dump our unwanted and rectify our centuries old mistakes. That's wrong certainl We treat you with the same contempt and admiration we do your media.

Still as a country you have to take some blame for bombarding the world with 60 years of propaganda and ideological swill that allowed us to come to that conclusion. I'd hazard a guess that the predominant image of your culture would be a man with a gun seeking revenge. Not a great symbol. [/end drunken rambling]

I think it's easy to be critical of America when you don't have any first hand experience of Americans. I know my view of the country and it's people has changed a lot since I started getting to know Americans online a few years ago.

Do you agree that the image that America tends to promote about itself is very different from the reality? Most U.S. citizens I've met I have done in countries not our own and apart from a couple of wankers who thought not being killed by Hitler gave them carte blanche to act like they owned the planet, I've found them to be a people who are surprisingly civil, humble and willing to actually discuss things of any worth which is in direct opposition to that boorish public image they present.

[Pappa]

You know what CES? It used to annoy me that you would attempt to have a go at Europeans as one homogeneous group, but lately I think you are onto something. We in Europe do often seem to treat the U.S. like some it's some kind of butler/garbageman to clean up after us, dump our unwanted and rectify our centuries old mistakes. That's wrong certainl We treat you with the same contempt and admiration we do your media.

Still as a country you have to take some blame for bombarding the world with 60 years of propaganda and ideological swill that allowed us to come to that conclusion. I'd hazard a guess that the predominant image of your culture would be a man with a gun seeking revenge. Not a great symbol. [/end drunken rambling]

I think it's easy to be critical of America when you don't have any first hand experience of Americans. I know my view of the country and it's people has changed a lot since I started getting to know Americans online a few years ago.

Do you agree that the image that America tends to promote about itself is very different from the reality? Most U.S. citizens I've met I have done in countries not our own and apart from a couple of wankers who thought not being killed by Hitler gave them carte blanche to act like they owned the planet, I've found them to be a people who are surprisingly civil, humble and willing to actually discuss things of any worth which is in direct opposition to that boorish public image they present.

I think there are two different, and polarised, views of America over here. The view it tends to present of itself (mostly through mass media) and the view we tend to get over here of a world power intent on hegemony and disinterested in the views of ever other nation on earth except when it suits. Both are correct to a degree, but they are just extremes with all the other bits missing. They're also are lacking in another sense. All people of whatever country don't have any real control over their politicians and government, their media, or any other aspect of their exported culture.... so we see something which isn't really what the people themselves want as their culture and politics and what they themselves don't agree with or subscribe to.

[Audley Strange]

You know what CES? It used to annoy me that you would attempt to have a go at Europeans as one homogeneous group, but lately I think you are onto something. We in Europe do often seem to treat the U.S. like some it's some kind of butler/garbageman to clean up after us, dump our unwanted and rectify our centuries old mistakes. That's wrong certainl We treat you with the same contempt and admiration we do your media.

Still as a country you have to take some blame for bombarding the world with 60 years of propaganda and ideological swill that allowed us to come to that conclusion. I'd hazard a guess that the predominant image of your culture would be a man with a gun seeking revenge. Not a great symbol. [/end drunken rambling]

I think it's easy to be critical of America when you don't have any first hand experience of Americans. I know my view of the country and it's people has changed a lot since I started getting to know Americans online a few years ago.

Do you agree that the image that America tends to promote about itself is very different from the reality? Most U.S. citizens I've met I have done in countries not our own and apart from a couple of wankers who thought not being killed by Hitler gave them carte blanche to act like they owned the planet, I've found them to be a people who are surprisingly civil, humble and willing to actually discuss things of any worth which is in direct opposition to that boorish public image they present.

I think there are two different, and polarised, views of America over here. The view it tends to present of itself (mostly through mass media) and the view we tend to get over here of a world power intent on hegemony and disinterested in the views of ever other nation on earth except when it suits. Both are correct to a degree, but they are just extremes with all the other bits missing. They're also are lacking in another sense. All people of whatever country don't have any real control over their politicians and government, their media, or any other aspect of their exported culture.... so we see something which isn't really what the people themselves want as their culture and politics and what they themselves don't agree with or subscribe to.

Yep. It amazes me that people believe the illusion of the news and propaganda spectacle even when they know it's propaganda and dismiss it, when applies to a nations people to the extent I'm finding the territorial fictions of nation states like religions, based on little but traditional nonsense and fear of the other. But it's not really the people of any country that are the other, it's those insane cunts that want to run the world for flags or queens or dust devils or whatever that are represented by propaganda. Politicians and other control junkies should not be considered as representing the wishes of normal people.

[Animavore]

Well at least none of you have the stereotype of being drunken brawlers, mutton-headed thickos with hair growing on your forehead and cowboy builders who cut corners.

If being told I was a sheep-stagger or mad person was the worst I got I'd be happy. Oh except I do get that - on top of the rest. And gay.

Cunts don't know you're born

[amok]

Re: the OP

I think I mentioned on another thread (I can't find it, because I can't remember the header, but it was about whether police have the right to demand identification), that there was likely a certain amount of misinformation floating about when the issue first came up. Whether it was intentional fear-mongering or unintentional paranoia, I don't know.

The impression was that the law would allow for police to demand citizenship/immigration papers at any time, and there were also enough "those people" type comments to fear that the people who would be asked were people who "looked" like immigrants. (I'm not talking about discussions on this board - the first time I participated in a discussion about it was on the forum section of a dating site, of all places - ha!). Anyway, I gather the fears about profiling and racism were unfounded, or at least over-stated, because I haven't heard much in the way of terrible injustices in yonks.

Mind you, I still have to wonder how many white vs. hispanic citizens even think about carrying around proof of citizenship (rather than just their driver's licences or other ID) when they're out and about. It's NOT a good idea to carry your passport/citizenship papers with you at all times, in my opinion. I certainly don't walk around with "proof of citizenship."

Audley Strange wrote:
Do you agree that the image that America tends to promote about itself is very different from the reality? Most U.S. citizens I've met I have done in countries not our own and apart from a couple of wankers who thought not being killed by Hitler gave them carte blanche to act like they owned the planet, I've found them to be a people who are surprisingly civil, humble and willing to actually discuss things of any worth which is in direct opposition to that boorish public image they present.

I agree. I meet quite a few Americans (granted, very casually), because this city is crawling with them during the summer cruise ship season and also when U.S. Navy ships are in port. I've had nothing but positive experiences with Americans I've met in real life. Makes you wonder how the stereotype actually gets reinforced. The creepy ones must go elsewhere?

[amok]

As an aside, I'm going to say here and now that I think Canada is making a huge mistake right now in its history by NOT going whole hog on encouraging massive immigration.

I'd personally like a concerted campaign to encourage southern N. American/Central American & South American, as well as Eastern European and African and Asian immigrants who are now going to the U.S. and the U.K./other Western Europe countries, to come here, instead. In large numbers.

We need people, here, and the places people go are apparently too crowded. What is it? Too cold? It's not, really. It's not that bad. Winter is fun, and it makes summer brilliant.

[Audley Strange]

Well at least none of you have the stereotype of being drunken brawlers, mutton-headed thickos with hair growing on your forehead and cowboy builders who cut corners.

If being told I was a sheep-stagger or mad person was the worst I got I'd be happy. Oh except I do get that - on top of the rest. And gay.

Cunts don't know you're born

Are you kidding? We're considered balls of rapidly aging lard with ginger pubes sticking out of them, weaned on tonic wine and cigarettes, with a proclivity towards poverty, sectarianism, heroin addiction and mindless bloody violence, what's more is that we do have a tendency to aspire to stereotype.

[Coito ergo sum]

You know what CES? It used to annoy me that you would attempt to have a go at Europeans as one homogeneous group, but lately I think you are onto something. We in Europe do often seem to treat the U.S. like some it's some kind of butler/garbageman to clean up after us, dump our unwanted and rectify our centuries old mistakes. That's wrong certainl We treat you with the same contempt and admiration we do your media.

Still as a country you have to take some blame for bombarding the world with 60 years of propaganda and ideological swill that allowed us to come to that conclusion. I'd hazard a guess that the predominant image of your culture would be a man with a gun seeking revenge. Not a great symbol. [/end drunken rambling]

I do so love drunken ramblings....It's only 8:20am here in the Sunshine State, and I would much prefer to be drunk and rambling. As it happens, I can only ramble for a few minutes and then I'm off to make some money.

I think the US does deserve blame for its own negative image. I think, however, that along with the blame, we need to get the credit for many things and many accomplishments.