That defence review is looking such a good idea right now..,

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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by FBM » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:03 am

JimC wrote:
FBM wrote:
JimC wrote:When you wish the mob to follow you, look for an external enemy...

http://www.nature.com/news/isotopes-hin ... est-1.9972
Interesting, FBM.

Right now, I am working through a unit on nuclear physics with my physics lads - I may give them this link, if only to emphasise the tentative nature of scientific deduction.

IMO, that tentative quality is one of the hallmarks of rational honesty...
Yep, I think that would be a good example. And a good example of how scientific deduction operates as compared to the way politics work. ;)
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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Rum » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:21 am

Fernandez in referring to the 'militarization of the South Atlantic' (by the UK) referred with fained horror to our modern 'destroyer' - 'just listen to that word - destroyer' she said. Talk about crude rhetoric..

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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Clinton Huxley » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:28 am

Rum wrote:Fernandez in referring to the 'militarization of the South Atlantic' (by the UK) referred with fained horror to our modern 'destroyer' - 'just listen to that word - destroyer' she said. Talk about crude rhetoric..
So if we rename it HMS Fluffy, all will be well...
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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Horwood Beer-Master » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:39 am

Argentina will take Falklands claim to the UN, says president

Cristina Kirchner warns of 'grave risks to international security' and states intention to prevent war over natural resources
If she wishes to prevent war the power to do so is entirely in her hands - simply don't start a war.

The only risk to international security here is named Cristina Kirchner. It is impossible to read the stuff she's saying now as anything except a threat, and I think we need to take very seriously the possibility that she's nuts enough to act on it.
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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Clinton Huxley » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:47 am

I see the old "There may be a nuclear sub in the S. Atlantic, there may not" tactic is being deployed. That has worked before...
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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Clinton Huxley » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:47 am

I think if they persist, we should sink the Belgrano AGAIN!
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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Horwood Beer-Master » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:02 am

http://www.penguin-news.com/index.php?o ... iaist-past
...Cameron may not have been aware of it, but by speaking as he did he touched a very tender spot. Like North Americans who think they cannot possibly be "imperialists" because their mainly British predecessors broke away from the British Empire, many Argentines are determined to persuade themselves that, despite appearances and the historical record, they are not white settlers who are reaping the benefits of European expansion into the Western Hemisphere but, in spiritual terms at least, an indigenous people whose roots run deep.

When the five-hundredth anniversary of Columbus's arrival came around, some children of recent immigrants protested with great indignation against the rather modest celebrations saying that nothing would make them pay homage to the man who started "the invasion" of their continent. Many still think that way. With considerable ingenuity, nationalists of one kind or another have contrived to transform themselves into honorary aborigines who are fully entitled to berate the misbehaviour of their own forefathers. The more cerebral among them would like Argentina to liberate itself entirely from the colonial yoke by repudiating all influences emanating from benighted Europe, though as yet none of them has gone so far as to speak, write and think solely in Guaraní, Quechua or Mapuche.

Unlike most other Latin American countries where much of the population is of Amerindian origin, Argentina still has a distinctly European flavour. Its leaders no longer tell the world it is "the only white country south of Canada", though some take pains to stress the "human quality" of its inhabitants, a subtle way of alluding to what they assume is a racial advantage, and prejudice against people of mixed or non-European ancestry is still surprisingly common.

The dispute between intellectuals who think Argentina is basically European and those who say it is really something completely different has been going on for many decades, with the latter gaining the upper hand, in large measure because since the Second World War the Europeans who stayed home have been in an apologetic, self-critical mood, and only too willing to confess to being far worse than anyone else. With considerable glee, Africans and Asians, plus ethnic, religious and even sexual minorities living in Western countries, have been making the most of European grovelling by playing the victim card and demanding redress.

So too have Argentine nationalists, a breed much given to collective self-pity. Instead of congratulating themselves for having inherited a major share of the spoils of empire (barely forty million people have the run of a fertile territory that is almost as big as the one inhabited by over a billion Indians), they complain bitterly because the British imperialists refuse to let them have some small, windswept, rain-soaked and chilly islands several hundred kilometres away from the mainland. Few would dream of visiting them, let alone live there, but then the dispute is not about Lebensraum, it is about symbolism. Argentine nationalists want to feel the world has played them a dirty trick and going on about the Falkland Islands, with the support of many other victims, real or imagined, of imperialist perfidy, is a splendid way of proving oneself hard done-by.

Were Argentina's rulers really interested in getting the islands, they would have stuck to the much-ridiculed policy initiated by Guido Di Tella of being very nice to their inhabitants, many of whose forefathers went there when those of most Argentines were still in Italy, Spain or places like Syria, in the belief that as time passed they would wean themselves away from the distant metropolis and become attached to their closest neighbours. That policy would have made sense if for some inexplicable reason the many nationalists who take the issue seriously thought Argentina needed yet more territory, but that is not really what they are after. What they dream of is a rousing diplomatic battle that ends with their own triumph and the humbling of the arrogant Anglo-Saxons. Should the islanders try to stand in the way, so much the worse for them. They do not count.

And then? In the unlikely event of the British abandoning the "Kelpers" to whatever fate Cristina, Randazzo, Timerman and company think they have in store for them, an effort would be made to show the world that Argentina really needed the islands, but after the first flurry of investment they would in all probability be left alone, like so many other parts of the country that have been allowed to sink into rural poverty.
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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Rum » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:49 am

One side effect of the increased tension and the attempt to in effect blockade the Falklands is it seems a shortage of eggs.

Here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16980747

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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Atheist-Lite » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:01 am

There's 2913 inhabitants. A very small village in other words. It'd be cheaper and wiser to relocate them back here. I think morally the islands belong to Argentina. Also Thatcher should be in the Hague for sinking the Belgrano...a totally unnecessary action with the ship sailing away at the time. :smoke:
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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:48 pm

Crumple wrote:There's 2913 inhabitants. A very small village in other words. It'd be cheaper and wiser to relocate them back here. I think morally the islands belong to Argentina.
Can we use that argument for justifying our annexation of the Hawaiian Islands?
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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Jesus_of_Nazareth » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:14 pm

I think Britain should announce a new Exclusion Zone - something big enough that it cuts through half of Buenos Aires.

and then claim that Buenos Aires was historically part of the Falkland Islands - and should be handed over.
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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Horwood Beer-Master » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:52 pm

Crumple wrote:...I think morally the islands belong to Argentina...
How's that then?
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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Rum » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:57 pm

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
Crumple wrote:...I think morally the islands belong to Argentina...
How's that then?
He's wrong. About the only claim they have is a geographical one - i.e. they are so close, though I'm not sure how that fits with international law on such things.

Of course nobody in these hypocritical wars of words ever mentions the O word - which is of course what it is all about.

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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Jesus_of_Nazareth » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:11 pm

I don't even think they are that close. It's not as if it's Isle of Wight close, or long island.

Maybe we should offer South Georgia (the island - not the State!) to the Palestinians as a homeland......
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Re: That defence review is looking such a good idea right no

Post by Rum » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:44 pm

Jesus_of_Nazareth wrote:I don't even think they are that close. It's not as if it's Isle of Wight close, or long island.

Maybe we should offer South Georgia (the island - not the State!) to the Palestinians as a homeland......
When the UN were discussing the establishment of a Jewish state and ofc settled on Palestine, one of the options put forward was that it should be established in the island of Madasca!

I'm trying to imagine how that would have played in east Africa over the decades!

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