Christopher Jarvis gets 12 months for child porn.

[Robert_S]

And I see Seth is still trying to say, Catholic church = Every Catholic on the planet. Maybe that's how the term is used in America (could someone clarify that?) but when we in Ireland say "The Catholic church" or even just "the Church" we mean the organisation. So when I say I hate the Catholic church I mean the organisation, as it stands, at least until it sorts itself out. Our own governement is even considerng seperation of church and state so fed up with them it is. It makes no sense to say that when I say I hate the Catholic church I mean everyone who is a Catholc - that would mean having to hate my own family and friends - some of whom are priests. Or to suggest that I'm trying to malign them, they all agree with me! I mentioned before that I believe this ultra-defense of the Catholic church is an American phenomenon probably based on the fact that Ameica is so multi-denomiational that damage control needs to be effected to keep Catholics from just simply leaving and going to another church (which many are doing from what I hear). An option not readily availible in Ireland. The biggest critics of the church in Ireland are all Catholic. You don't see Irish atheists making the news or the radio shows with their opinions against the church. And even the documentary which really brought the extent of the abuse in the church to light was by a Catholic named Mary Rafferty. And we all remember the Irish Taoseach's damning indictment against them last year for the continuing cover-ups and interference with inquiry, another staunch Catholic.

By Seth's logic when I say "I hate McDonalds" I mean the company, its employees and its patrons. Which makes no sense what-so-ever. So Seth, I'd appreciate you quit with the lies.

No lies from me. You see, the Catholic church is not the Catholic priesthood or its hierarchy, it's the people who make up the church. Without them there is no church. The priesthood and its hierarchy are merely the administrative arm of the church. So if you say "pedophile priests" in relation to priests who actually are pedophiles or you say "the Catholic priesthood" or otherwise specify whom you are referring to and your accusations are legitimate and targeted at those actually responsible for abuse, I have no quibble or objection. But that's not what I see, ever. I see broad-brush, non-specific condemnations of everyone associated with the church, which is unfair, unreasonable, despicable, disgusting, bigoted, prejudiced, irrational and ethically corrupt.

And I'll point out that sort of disgusting behavior whenever I see it, whether you like it or not.

He just told you how the words are used. Yet you are arrogantly dismissing the real expressions of real Catholics in your zeal to defend them. Typical PC bullshit.

[Seth]

And I see Seth is still trying to say, Catholic church = Every Catholic on the planet. Maybe that's how the term is used in America (could someone clarify that?) but when we in Ireland say "The Catholic church" or even just "the Church" we mean the organisation. So when I say I hate the Catholic church I mean the organisation, as it stands, at least until it sorts itself out. Our own governement is even considerng seperation of church and state so fed up with them it is. It makes no sense to say that when I say I hate the Catholic church I mean everyone who is a Catholc - that would mean having to hate my own family and friends - some of whom are priests. Or to suggest that I'm trying to malign them, they all agree with me! I mentioned before that I believe this ultra-defense of the Catholic church is an American phenomenon probably based on the fact that Ameica is so multi-denomiational that damage control needs to be effected to keep Catholics from just simply leaving and going to another church (which many are doing from what I hear). An option not readily availible in Ireland. The biggest critics of the church in Ireland are all Catholic. You don't see Irish atheists making the news or the radio shows with their opinions against the church. And even the documentary which really brought the extent of the abuse in the church to light was by a Catholic named Mary Rafferty. And we all remember the Irish Taoseach's damning indictment against them last year for the continuing cover-ups and interference with inquiry, another staunch Catholic.

By Seth's logic when I say "I hate McDonalds" I mean the company, its employees and its patrons. Which makes no sense what-so-ever. So Seth, I'd appreciate you quit with the lies.

No lies from me. You see, the Catholic church is not the Catholic priesthood or its hierarchy, it's the people who make up the church. Without them there is no church. The priesthood and its hierarchy are merely the administrative arm of the church. So if you say "pedophile priests" in relation to priests who actually are pedophiles or you say "the Catholic priesthood" or otherwise specify whom you are referring to and your accusations are legitimate and targeted at those actually responsible for abuse, I have no quibble or objection. But that's not what I see, ever. I see broad-brush, non-specific condemnations of everyone associated with the church, which is unfair, unreasonable, despicable, disgusting, bigoted, prejudiced, irrational and ethically corrupt.

And I'll point out that sort of disgusting behavior whenever I see it, whether you like it or not.

He just told you how the words are used. Yet you are arrogantly dismissing the real expressions of real Catholics in your zeal to defend them. Typical PC bullshit.

Not at all. Every Catholic I know is as revolted by the priest abuse scandal as anyone here is, but they know full well that pedophile priests are not representative samples of Catholicism, and that they comprise the tiny minority of even the class of all Catholic priests. And every Catholic I know of does NOT believe that either the offending priests or those who conspired with them to cover up the abuse comprise "the Catholic church." Applying the label "the Catholic church" to an organization comprised of more than 400,000 priests and Bishops and more than one billion members who do NOT molest children is the proper application, not applying it to the tiny minority of individuals who violated every precept and teaching of the church to commit criminal acts and then implying that the overwhelming majority is something other than "the Catholic church."

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Ah, the No True Catholic Fallacy.

[Animavore]

And I see Seth is still trying to say, Catholic church = Every Catholic on the planet. Maybe that's how the term is used in America (could someone clarify that?) but when we in Ireland say "The Catholic church" or even just "the Church" we mean the organisation. So when I say I hate the Catholic church I mean the organisation, as it stands, at least until it sorts itself out. Our own governement is even considerng seperation of church and state so fed up with them it is. It makes no sense to say that when I say I hate the Catholic church I mean everyone who is a Catholc - that would mean having to hate my own family and friends - some of whom are priests. Or to suggest that I'm trying to malign them, they all agree with me! I mentioned before that I believe this ultra-defense of the Catholic church is an American phenomenon probably based on the fact that Ameica is so multi-denomiational that damage control needs to be effected to keep Catholics from just simply leaving and going to another church (which many are doing from what I hear). An option not readily availible in Ireland. The biggest critics of the church in Ireland are all Catholic. You don't see Irish atheists making the news or the radio shows with their opinions against the church. And even the documentary which really brought the extent of the abuse in the church to light was by a Catholic named Mary Rafferty. And we all remember the Irish Taoseach's damning indictment against them last year for the continuing cover-ups and interference with inquiry, another staunch Catholic.

By Seth's logic when I say "I hate McDonalds" I mean the company, its employees and its patrons. Which makes no sense what-so-ever. So Seth, I'd appreciate you quit with the lies.

No lies from me. You see, the Catholic church is not the Catholic priesthood or its hierarchy, it's the people who make up the church. Without them there is no church. The priesthood and its hierarchy are merely the administrative arm of the church. So if you say "pedophile priests" in relation to priests who actually are pedophiles or you say "the Catholic priesthood" or otherwise specify whom you are referring to and your accusations are legitimate and targeted at those actually responsible for abuse, I have no quibble or objection. But that's not what I see, ever. I see broad-brush, non-specific condemnations of everyone associated with the church, which is unfair, unreasonable, despicable, disgusting, bigoted, prejudiced, irrational and ethically corrupt.

And I'll point out that sort of disgusting behavior whenever I see it, whether you like it or not.

He just told you how the words are used. Yet you are arrogantly dismissing the real expressions of real Catholics in your zeal to defend them. Typical PC bullshit.

Not at all. Every Catholic I know is as revolted by the priest abuse scandal as anyone here is, but they know full well that pedophile priests are not representative samples of Catholicism, and that they comprise the tiny minority of even the class of all Catholic priests. And every Catholic I know of does NOT believe that either the offending priests or those who conspired with them to cover up the abuse comprise "the Catholic church." Applying the label "the Catholic church" to an organization comprised of more than 400,000 priests and Bishops and more than one billion members who do NOT molest children is the proper application, not applying it to the tiny minority of individuals who violated every precept and teaching of the church to commit criminal acts and then implying that the overwhelming majority is something other than "the Catholic church."

Oh dear.

I don't care how you use phrases in America. It's not how we use them. When a news headline comes on Irish National TV to the effect, 'Catholic Church is rocked by further scandal.' who do you think they mean? (remembering that Irish National TV is Catholic and even play the angelus before the news). Do you think they mean the organisation or its followers?
And when they talk about the Catholic Church's handling of affairs to whom do you think they are reffering? And remember, it's the Catholic Church's continued handling of affairs which run all the way to the Vatican that is the issue (as detailed in the Cloyne report). Not the actions of a minority of priests.
And when Enda Kenny, Irish Prime Minister, said on his speech on the Cloyne report last year, "Today that Church needs to be a penitent Church. A Church truly and deeply penitent for the horrors it perpetrated, that it hid, and that it denied" whom do you think he was speaking about.
Its followers are members of the Catholic Church but not the Catholic Church. They follow the teachings of the Catholic Church (well, not really ), teachings which The Church believe are infallible. Saying that the Church members are The Church is like saying the N:Sync fan-club are N:Sync.
Even Wiki agrees with me.

The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Churchis the world's largest Christian church, with over a billion members [note it doesn't say and its members] .... Roman Catholic doctrine maintains that the Church is infallible when it definitively teaches a doctrine of faith or morals.

When they say The Church is infallible do you think they mean the official body or its members?

The office of the pope is known as the Papacy. His ecclesiastical jurisdiction is often called the "Holy See" (Sancta Sedesin Latin), or the "Apostolic See" (meaning the see of the Apostle Saint Peter).[22][23]Directly serving the Pope is the Roman Curia, the central governing body that administers the day-to-day business of the Catholic Church.

When they say the Roman Curia administer the day-to-day business of the Catholic Church do they mean the organisation or its members?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church

You're just flat-out wrong on this. It's amusing to me as an Irish Catholic (culturally) that you think you can presume to tell me what is meant by our use of terms. We refer to ourselves as Irish Catholics, Members of the Catholic Church. It would be impractical to call ourselves and the Church the same thing otherwise how would you know who you're talking about?

[Pappa]

Is it too much to accept that what is meant by "the Catholic Church" might differ greatly depending on the context?

[Animavore]

Is it too much to accept that what is meant by "the Catholic Church" might differ greatly depending on the context?

I've never heard an Irish Catholic refer to themselves and other Catholics as The Catholic Church (ie. we, the Catholic Church). Maybe this is how Americans phrase it but I've yet to get confirmation on that except Seth's say-so.
And even if it is I'm not changing my terminology to suit them any more than I'm writing "favor" instead of "favour". They just have to accept I mean a particular thing when I say "The Catholic Church."

[Robert_S]

Is it too much to accept that what is meant by "the Catholic Church" might differ greatly depending on the context?

I've never heard an Irish Catholic refer to themselves and other Catholics as The Catholic Church (ie. we, the Catholic Church). Maybe this is how Americans phrase it but I've yet to get confirmation on that except Seth's say-so.

Seth's definition is a new one on me.

[klr]

Is it too much to accept that what is meant by "the Catholic Church" might differ greatly depending on the context?

I've never heard an Irish Catholic refer to themselves and other Catholics as The Catholic Church (ie. we, the Catholic Church). Maybe this is how Americans phrase it but I've yet to get confirmation on that except Seth's say-so.
And even if it is I'm not changing my terminology to suit them any more than I'm writing "favor" instead of "favour". They just have to accept I mean a particular thing when I say "The Catholic Church."

Same here. "The Church" is the almost always a reference to the RCC organisation, either in Ireland or globally.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Is it too much to accept that what is meant by "the Catholic Church" might differ greatly depending on the context?

I've never heard an Irish Catholic refer to themselves and other Catholics as The Catholic Church (ie. we, the Catholic Church). Maybe this is how Americans phrase it but I've yet to get confirmation on that except Seth's say-so.

Seth's definition is a new one on me.

[JimC]

Animavore wrote:

By the way, Tim is Australian suggesting their Catholics feel the same as ours (and Spains, and Hollands) further convincing me the ultra-defense of the Catholic church is purely American, and led, in fact, by one particualrly odious blow-hard named Bill O'Donohue who recently taunted and mocked victims of abuse.

I mean Seth, c'mon, do you really want to align yourself with this scumbag?

Who is this "Tim" you speak of?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Animavore wrote:

By the way, Tim is Australian suggesting their Catholics feel the same as ours (and Spains, and Hollands) further convincing me the ultra-defense of the Catholic church is purely American, and led, in fact, by one particualrly odious blow-hard named Bill O'Donohue who recently taunted and mocked victims of abuse.

I mean Seth, c'mon, do you really want to align yourself with this scumbag?

Who is this "Tim" you speak of?

[Animavore]

Time the most knowledgeable person I know on Christian and biblical history.

[Seth]

Is it too much to accept that what is meant by "the Catholic Church" might differ greatly depending on the context?

Is it too much to expect supposedly rational, logical people to not refer to "the Catholic Church" generally, regardless of whether it is comprised of the class of all Catholics, be they laity or ordained, or comprised of the class of only the ordained when referring to the criminal wrongdoing of one percent of the priesthood? Evidently it is.

Reason and fundamental fairness demands that when one is excoriating criminals and conspirators for their wrongful deeds that one do so with some specificity rather than, for example, saying that atheists are child-buggering meth-heads who drown puppies and beat their spouses with iron rods when it's only the child-buggering meth-head puppy-drowning spouse beating atheists who do so.

Reason and fundamental fairness would also suggest that at least some acknowledgment of the massive efforts taken by the church hierarchy in the last ten years to ensure that such things don't happen again is rational and logical.

But I don't see any of that coming from the hateful, spiteful, cruel, intolerant, bigoted Atheists who constantly tar everything Catholic with the same vitriol-filled brush.

[Animavore]

Reported for trolling.





(not actually)

[Hermit]

Is it too much to expect supposedly rational, logical people to not refer to "the Catholic Church" generally, regardless of whether it is comprised of the class of all Catholics, be they laity or ordained, or comprised of the class of only the ordained when referring to the criminal wrongdoing of one percent of the priesthood? Evidently it is.

...and for good reason. It is not only the abuse by some of its clergy we are talking about. It is the systematic cover up of their crimes that is endemic and systematic throughout its hierarchy from the papal level right down to chaplains. Be aware that when I refer to "the (Roman Catholic) Church", I am - like everyone else except you - referring only to the formal institution. If I wanted to voice an opinion about all catholics at large, I'd use the term ... can you guess?... yes, "catholics".