Are you scientifically literate?

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Coito ergo sum
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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:29 pm

Audley Strange wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Audley Strange wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Ronja wrote:
The biggest chunk of being literate in any subject is remembering things. Remembering things may well be the most important aspect of being literate.
I disagree Coito. Cognition, understanding of material I think. It's not necessary to understand meaning to remember answers. I'd refer you to the Chinese Box idea.
If you don't remember stuff, how can you ever show that you understand a subject?
You can't, you can't understand stuff if you don't remember, but it doesn't mean you necessarily understand what you remember. As such you could train a chimp that pressing the "BANANA" button delivers a banana, but it doesn't necessarily understand meaning of "banana" or why that bunch of symbols is being used to give it one. Thus it is not literate.
Remembering or knowing stuff is a necessary, but perhaps not sufficient condition to understanding. You may, for example, have rote recall of items without understanding context. However, without knowing or remembering, we can certainly conclude that understanding is necessarily lacking.

However, the test tests more than mere rote memory, or chimp-like push the button and a banana appears conditioning. It tests understanding of terms and a variety of concepts.

I would never claim it to be a perfect test of literacy. It's just a 50 question test. However, to make the suggestion that there is no connection between being able to ace the 50 questions, and getting only 1/2 of them right, as to who knows more basic information about science, is a bit naive. Why bother having tests in school then? If what some folks are saying is the case, then knowing a lot of things about a subject is no indication that one has any knowledge of the subject.

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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:30 pm

Pensioner wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Pensioner wrote:I did the test and I got 70%, if any of you guys got a lower score than me you must be thick as two short planks. :prof: :dance:

...thicker than that, actually... :dance:
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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by klr » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:50 pm

There was at least one trick question, the one that referred to the isotope "Protium". I'd never heard of that before, and a wiki check earlier today confirmed that it is fact hardly ever used in practice. I would have guessed the correct answer anyway from the clues given - and even without them, given the likely connect with Deuterium and Tritium.
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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:51 pm

Seabass wrote:Well, what do we mean by "science literacy"?
I would say, some knowledge of basic concepts, in the realm of minimal knowledge, in the way a person who can fill out application forms and read at the high school level, roughly, would be said to be basically literate in reading. That would be the minimum to be "literate" in science. Then from there it is relative, from the bare minimum of basic science literacy, to massive expertise.
Seabass wrote:
In my opinion, this quiz seems to put too heavy an emphasis on memory retention of factoids and definitions.
What would a quiz look like that did not put to heavy an emphasis on memory retention of factoids and definitions?

It seems to me that going beyond that would only make it harder. Instead of asking what planet Europa orbits, maybe they should have asked us about Europa's orbit, composition, and other details? I don't get it. You can't get more basic than "what planet does Europa orbit?" And, I have a real suspicion that if the test asked for calculations of the smeared out density of matter, or describe the mechanics of the interior of stars, that folks would have an even harder time.

Understanding a topic is even more difficult than just knowing factoids and definitions. Factoids and definitions are things that have to be learned to some extent first. Because the facts -- the names of things, and formulas, and such, have to be learned before you can really understand them.
Seabass wrote:
If we consider this:
According to the United States National Center for Education Statistics, "scientific literacy is the knowledge and understanding of scientific concepts and processes required for personal decision making, participation in civic and cultural affairs, and economic productivity".[1] A scientifically literate person is defined as one who has the capacity to:
understand experiment and reasoning as well as basic scientific facts and their meaning
A person who doesn't get a fair bit of the 50 question test correct would likely be shown to not know the basic scientific facts and their meaning, particular with all the hints and rhetorical cues given in the questions.
ask, find, or determine answers to questions derived from curiosity about everyday experiences
describe, explain, and predict natural phenomena
I highly doubt that people who can't do well on that 50 question quiz can explain and predict natural phenomena. If you don't know what "nimbus" means in connection with clouds, then I highly doubt one is out there explaining and predicting cloud-related weather phenomena. What are people doing? Saying - see that puffy rainy thing up there? Well, let me explain that to you...
Seabass wrote: read with understanding articles about science in the popular press and to engage in social conversation about the validity of the conclusions
identify scientific issues underlying national and local decisions and express positions that are scientifically and technologically informed
evaluate the quality of scientific information on the basis of its source and the methods used to generate it
pose and evaluate arguments based on evidence and to apply conclusions from such arguments appropriately
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_literacy
the U.S. National Center for Education Statistics seems to consider "science literacy" as having more to do with broad understanding of scientific concepts and processes, rather than simple memory retention of factoids and definitions.[/quote]

But, the facts and definitions are subsumed within the US National Center for Education Statistic's definition. It seems as if that is part of it. And, a mere knowledge of factoids -- like rote memorization - is not enough, but if you don't even have that, then clearly the US NCES would find you scientifically illiterate.

Seabass wrote:
So, going by these criteria and my high school and college performance in science classes, I think it's fair to say that I am reasonably scientifically literate, yet I only scored 38 on this quiz because fuck if I can remember what a eukaryote is, or what the Greek symbol for friction is, fifteen years after college.
38 isn't that bad, though. It's a C - 75%, where the minimum expected by pure guessing is 25%. So, I think anyone who got a 38 would probably be fairly scientifically literate.
Seabass wrote:
Now, this is not say that knowing certain scientific facts isn't part of what it is to be scientifically literate, rather my point is that you aren't necessarily scientifically illiterate for not knowing what the blazes a "blastocyst" is in your forties.
One can say that about every single question. No one question, of course, tells us anything. But, the statistics do say something.

And, this is the thing that I used the analogy of history to illustrate. Look, sure, memorizing a timeline of names, dates and events doesn't make you a history expert, and the true test of historical expertise is in one's understanding, and ability to place events in context, and the ability to explain and recount events and explore motivations and causes and effects. Yes, that is what folks interested in history generally strive for. That being said- some good level of knowledge of the timeline, names and dates and events is absolutely necessary to get to that next level. Nobody can have a good understanding of history, and causes, effects, motivations, and personalities, and all those more complex things, the whys and wherefores and hows, without knowing the facts: the who what where and whens.

The same is true for science. You just can't have an ability to make predictions, explain scientific phenomena, and all the rest of the higher level functions without knowing the basic facts. You can't know about the sun and how it functions without knowing that it is called the sun and what its constituent parts are. Only then can you explain the phenomena.

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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:55 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Pensioner wrote:I did the test and I got 70%, if any of you guys got a lower score than me you must be thick as two short planks. :prof: :dance:

...thicker than that, actually... :dance:
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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:15 pm

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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by Seabass » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:41 am

CES,

I'm not saying that knowledge of scientific facts isn't a component of scientific literacy. I'm saying there is a hell of a lot more to science literacy than the ability to spit out random science facts and definitions on demand.

Question:

Who do you consider to be more scientifically literate: a person who can tell you that we traditionally use the Greek mu as the symbol for coefficient of friction, but cannot solve friction problems? Or the person who has forgotten that mu is the symbol for COF, but can tell you how far a block will slide across a table, given all the necessary variables required to solve the problem?
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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by JimC » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:24 am

48 out of 50...

Kicked myself over the two I got wrong...

It is precisely the sort of quiz that science teachers should get 100% in...
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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by Tyrannical » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:17 am

I shudder to think what my wife would get on that quiz.
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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:38 am

JimC wrote:48 out of 50...

Kicked myself over the two I got wrong...

It is precisely the sort of quiz that science teachers should get 100% in...
Beat you by 1! :Erasb:

Which did you get wrong?
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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by JimC » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:41 am

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
JimC wrote:48 out of 50...

Kicked myself over the two I got wrong...

It is precisely the sort of quiz that science teachers should get 100% in...
Beat you by 1! :Erasb:

Which did you get wrong?
Heisenberg instead of Planck ("h") and one other that I've forgotten... :shifty:

(it may have been the wrong greek letter for something or other)

I ought to try my hand at making a maths/science quiz that is more oriented to problem solving...
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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:44 am

JimC wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
JimC wrote:48 out of 50...

Kicked myself over the two I got wrong...

It is precisely the sort of quiz that science teachers should get 100% in...
Beat you by 1! :Erasb:

Which did you get wrong?
Heisenberg instead of Planck ("h") and one other that I've forgotten... :shifty:

(it may have been the wrong greek letter for something or other)

I ought to try my hand at making a maths/science quiz that is more oriented to problem solving...
Good idea - I got the Eris one wrong. I clicked on Charon and submit and knew it was wrong before it told me! :lay:
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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by JacksSmirkingRevenge » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:55 am

You answered 46 of 50 questions correctly for a total score of 92%.
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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by Svartalf » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:19 am

JimC wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
JimC wrote:48 out of 50...

Kicked myself over the two I got wrong...

It is precisely the sort of quiz that science teachers should get 100% in...
Beat you by 1! :Erasb:

Which did you get wrong?
Heisenberg instead of Planck ("h") and one other that I've forgotten... :shifty:

(it may have been the wrong greek letter for something or other)

I ought to try my hand at making a maths/science quiz that is more oriented to problem solving...
Nearly got fooled by that one too... good thing I remembered "planck's constant", but no Heisenberg, and decided that the h bit was a red herring.
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Re: Are you scientifically literate?

Post by Pappa » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:10 am

Why the fuck have they chosen to use the most time-consuming way of completing a multi-choice quiz? :lay:

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