You're pretty lousy at guessing.Svartalf wrote:Actually, from the crap I've seen you spouting since I discovered your existence, I'd guess you weren't born with any rights, you were already all wrong.
Things I have to post - libertarianism derail
Re: Things I have to post - libertarianism derail
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: Things I have to post, by court order.
And I respect their right to be ignorant. I do not, however, expect to support them in their ignorance. They can be ignorant and poor or they can make a rational choice to improve themselves both intellectually and economically. But I'm not paying for it because I did not accept that burden willingly.Audley Strange wrote:Seth wrote:
Libertarianism expects people to act rationally and with well-formed adult personalities, and one of the principle tenets of Libertarianism is enlightened rational self-interest. Also, charity and altruism.
That right there, like any other system which demands humans to alter their behaviour en massé, is as doomed to disaster and as fraught with the same potential to genocide as all generalised behavioural philosophies are. People are not rational agents. Most of them can't even read or count.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: Things I have to post - libertarianism derail
I don't want them, I have them. They exist independent of what you happen to think, and I'll defend against anyone trying to take them away from me against my will, using whatever force is required up to and including lethal force against anyone who tries it.MrJonno wrote:Seth wrote:Maybe you were, but not me. I was born with all rights, in unlimited supply. How those rights are balanced against the equal rights of others is what civilization and government are all about.MrJonno wrote: You are born with zero rights... (additional twaddle deleted)
In other words you want something (rights) for nothing, yup libertarianism is theft from society
Paying for society is an entirely different thing having nothing whatever to do with what rights I'm born with. Libertarians are all for paying for what they consume, but as a matter of free contract, not as a matter of coercive obligation based on what someone else decides we owe society. My rights cost society nothing, only my exercise of those rights imposes any costs, and when such exercise imposes a cost on society, then I'm happy to pay for what I consume by way of services of government.
But I'm not paying for YOUR consumption of services. Not one thin dime. That's your problem, not mine.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: Things I have to post - libertarianism derail
Sod off!Seth wrote:You're pretty lousy at guessing.Svartalf wrote:Actually, from the crap I've seen you spouting since I discovered your existence, I'd guess you weren't born with any rights, you were already all wrong.
Re: Things I have to post - libertarianism derail
While all rights have to paid for I didnt say that neccessary had to be a financial tax it includes action or inactionIf you fail to pay your "existence tax," then what happens? The state eliminates you? Imprisons you? Compels you to work off your debt in indentured servitude?
The price for the right of life varies but in the UK its not being actively about to serious hurt or kill someone'. You don't lose this right if you have already killed someone which you do in countries with the death penalty It's not a very high price to pay but its still a price. Most healthy people have a desire to live but a natural desire in no ways means a natural right which are by definition is man made.
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!
Re: Things I have to post - libertarianism derail
According to http://www.taxmeless.com/IRS593Publication.htmIf I have US citizenship, but I live in Brazil and I only earn money in Brazil, I pay taxes to Brazil. If I have US citizenship, and I live in Brazil, but a run a store in the US selling goods to Americans, then the income is earned and generated there, and I have to pay US taxes on it, and that makes perfect sense.
Switzerland has similar rules as well where you will not only be taxed on income but on wealth even if you are running a hotel on the moonAs a U.S. citizen or resident alien, your worldwide income generally is subject to U.S. income tax regardless of where you are living. Also, you are subject to the same income tax return filing requirements that apply to U.S. citizens or residents living in the United States.
However a lot of countries have tax treaties with the US so a person doesnt have to pay two sets of taxes , if you are American working in the UK you would need to pay British taxes but in theory without a treaty you would have to pay US taxes as well
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!
Re: Things I have to post, by court order.
Of course. All socialist and indeed communist societies depend for their existence on capitalism and free markets for the goods and resources they produce.Tero wrote:Huh? If Norway were self contained, it would have no sense of the value of things? You have stretched the concept of OPM too far. We somehow make socialism possible by buying Norwegian oil.Seth wrote:
I've often said that socialism works pretty well (other than the whole liberty issue) until the OPM runs out. This is why Norway is held up as a paragon of democratic socialism. But it's a false or at least incomplete argument precisely because of what you say. Norway has a small population spread over a large area with abundant natural resources that Norway sells on the capitalist free-markets in order to fund its social programs.
But once the OPM (other people's money) runs out, like it did in the Soviet Union and Cuba (and everywhere else it's been tried) the system necessarily collapses because socialism stifles and indeed punishes the very economic model (capitalism and free markets) that it depends on in its resource-rich heyday. So, without the OPM, there's nothing left to sell to capitalists to fund the entitlements, as Greece proves without any doubt.
Norway could easily become self-contained, but it would very soon wither away and die because it does not have access to all the things it needs to keep advancing as a society. Without international trade, it would become worse than Cuba, with plenty of sunshine (or oil) but no food and no automobiles and no cell phones and no clothes other than reindeer hides. It would devolve into what it was thousands of years ago; roving bands preying on each other for the scant resources to meet basic needs.
Norway's prosperity utterly depends on capitalism, as does the economy of ever other socialist or communist state.
If the whole world were communist, then Norway's supplies of oil would be taken from Norway according to its ability to provide oil and given to other places that need oil, and Norway would get NOTHING IN RETURN, because as a cog in the great collective machine, it's needs will be determined by the State and it will only be issued that which the central planners deem it "needs."
That's exactly what happened to Ukraine in 1932-33, when Stalin decided that the recalcitrant Ukrainian people didn't "need" the 4.3 million tons of wheat that the Ukraine produced in 1932, and that the rest of the Soviet Union did "need" it, resulting in the deaths by deliberate and intentional starvation of up to 12 million people.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: Things I have to post - libertarianism derail
Go bugger yourself!devague wrote:Sod off!Seth wrote:You're pretty lousy at guessing.Svartalf wrote:Actually, from the crap I've seen you spouting since I discovered your existence, I'd guess you weren't born with any rights, you were already all wrong.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: Things I have to post - libertarianism derail
Ah, you only take yours up it, I see.Seth wrote:Go bugger yourself!devague wrote:Sod off!Seth wrote:You're pretty lousy at guessing.Svartalf wrote:Actually, from the crap I've seen you spouting since I discovered your existence, I'd guess you weren't born with any rights, you were already all wrong.
- Audley Strange
- "I blame the victim"
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Re: Things I have to post, by court order.
Yeah. but once all the ignorant and poor manage to work out they're ignorant and poor, they're quickly going to go from that to violent and entitled. So sometimes chucking a pittance at the social slurry is enlightened self interest.Seth wrote:And I respect their right to be ignorant. I do not, however, expect to support them in their ignorance. They can be ignorant and poor or they can make a rational choice to improve themselves both intellectually and economically. But I'm not paying for it because I did not accept that burden willingly.Audley Strange wrote:Seth wrote:
Libertarianism expects people to act rationally and with well-formed adult personalities, and one of the principle tenets of Libertarianism is enlightened rational self-interest. Also, charity and altruism.
That right there, like any other system which demands humans to alter their behaviour en massé, is as doomed to disaster and as fraught with the same potential to genocide as all generalised behavioural philosophies are. People are not rational agents. Most of them can't even read or count.
"What started as a legitimate effort by the townspeople of Salem to identify, capture and kill those who did Satan's bidding quickly deteriorated into a witch hunt" Army Man
Re: Things I have to post - libertarianism derail
Sent you a PM you bog trotting twat.devague wrote:Ah, you only take yours up it, I see.Seth wrote:Go bugger yourself!devague wrote:Sod off!Seth wrote:You're pretty lousy at guessing.Svartalf wrote:Actually, from the crap I've seen you spouting since I discovered your existence, I'd guess you weren't born with any rights, you were already all wrong.

“I wish no harm to any human being, but I, as one man, am going to exercise my freedom of speech. No human being on the face of the earth, no government is going to take from me my right to speak, my right to protest against wrong, my right to do everything that is for the benefit of mankind. I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser of capitalism dripping with blood from head to foot.”
John Maclean (Scottish socialist) speech from the Dock 1918.
John Maclean (Scottish socialist) speech from the Dock 1918.
Re: Things I have to post - libertarianism derail
Sure they do.MrJonno wrote:Except you are saying some has the right to exist in a country without paying for it,Somehow you can envision forcibly taking something from someone as "not theft," and leaving people alone to a great degree of personal autonomy to be "theft." Hardly a better recasting of Orwell's "Freedom is Slavery" is hard to imagine.
why should someone be allowed to own a house in a country without not just paying for the house but actually paying for the right to even be there in the first place or the legal system that allows buying anything.
Why should someone have to pay just to exist if they don't consume any services the government provides?
You own something not because you have paid for it but because society/government recognises that contract.
You have it backwards. Government/society recognizes that you own something because you paid for it. But if that recognition is merely passive, and requires no investment or expenditure by the government, why should one have to pay a tax merely for owning property?
If I make use of the County Clerk's office to record the purchase of a home so that I can have a secure, recorded title in the event of an ownership dispute, then I must pay for that service. If my house catches on fire and a government firefighter comes and puts it out, then I have to pay for that service. If I have a wild party and the government police show up to shut it down, then I have to pay for that service. If someone contests my ownership of the house and takes me to court, then I have to pay for that service. It can all be a la carte, you see. You pay for what you consume, but you don't have to pay just to exist, because it's your right to exist and to occupy space in the country because that's your birthright.
No, if you don't pay for the legal framework that DEFENDS your title to the property, then you have to defend that title yourself. Ownership is not granted by the government, ownership is a function of taking possession of a thing and defending that possession against others who might also try to possess it. In the end, it's a matter of using force to defend what you claim as your property. If you can't defend that ownership, then it's not yours. That's the natural law. Everything we have by way of "legal framework" is merely highly ritualized force intended to prevent actual physical combat to determine the right of possession.If you don't have the paid for legal framework you simply don't own it regardless of the interactions between the buyer and seller
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: Things I have to post, by court order.
Correct, if somewhat abbreviated. That's exactly one aspect of enlightened self-interest, and perhaps the most important. Having the desperately poor rise up in arms is bad for business. They tend not to spend money and make voluntary contracts while they are rioting over food, so it's both altruistic and in one's rational self-interest to invest in keeping the poor from rioting, and in fact in raising their economic status so that they can become buyers of products rather than consumers of largess.Audley Strange wrote:Yeah. but once all the ignorant and poor manage to work out they're ignorant and poor, they're quickly going to go from that to violent and entitled. So sometimes chucking a pittance at the social slurry is enlightened self interest.Seth wrote:And I respect their right to be ignorant. I do not, however, expect to support them in their ignorance. They can be ignorant and poor or they can make a rational choice to improve themselves both intellectually and economically. But I'm not paying for it because I did not accept that burden willingly.Audley Strange wrote:Seth wrote:
Libertarianism expects people to act rationally and with well-formed adult personalities, and one of the principle tenets of Libertarianism is enlightened rational self-interest. Also, charity and altruism.
That right there, like any other system which demands humans to alter their behaviour en massé, is as doomed to disaster and as fraught with the same potential to genocide as all generalised behavioural philosophies are. People are not rational agents. Most of them can't even read or count.
So, keeping food banks and shelters open and stocked is a good idea even in a Libertarian society, which means it will be done, but it will be done voluntarily rather than coercively.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: Things I have to post - libertarianism derail
Nah, I shove it up your mommy's and your little sister's.devague wrote:Ah, you only take yours up it, I see.Seth wrote:Go bugger yourself!devague wrote:Sod off!Seth wrote:You're pretty lousy at guessing.Svartalf wrote:Actually, from the crap I've seen you spouting since I discovered your existence, I'd guess you weren't born with any rights, you were already all wrong.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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