Entirely responsible? That's quite a claim. Looking at how science and education has been funded over the last couple of centuries, I'd suggest that most of the advancements made in science, technology and education, happened in spite of capitalism, not because of it. Research for the sake of research is an inherently risky investment - there's no guarantee of any profit, and even if there eventually is, even with patent laws, there's no guarantee that the people who profit will be the initial investors.Seth wrote:Capitalism is entirely responsible for both the massive gains in living standard and mechanization as well as technology. Without investment capital and the promise of a free market for the mechanisms and goods produced with them, neither the mechanisms to produce the goods, nor the goods themselves, would exist.mistermack wrote:Incidentally, the massive gains in living standards are not all down to capitalism. They are mainly down to mechanisation and technology. Having said that, capitalism has played an important part in that, so it's clearly an important part of the mix. But capitalism on it's own, without the technology explosion, wouldn't have produced much improvement in living standards.
The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
Not "clearly" - but, I accept your clarification. To the extent I misunderstood what you were saying, I believe I now understand.mistermack wrote:I was referring of course to capitalism unfettered by any socialism. And making the point that both capitalism and socialism were being blended in the successful modern economies.Coito ergo sum wrote: When you said this, "You can worship the selfish instinct if you like. Run society by pandering to selfishness, and you end up with a great life for the few, and misery for the many," I thought you were referring to capitalism. If not, then I stand corrected.
Edit: by the way, I never said I was a great debater.
That hardly justifies you claiming "You brought it up, claiming that capitalism meant misery for the many..."
I wouldn't have said that, I don't believe that, and it's clearly not what I said or claimed.
Pretension: A claim or the assertion of a claim to something.mistermack wrote:And I never said that you did.Coito ergo sum wrote: Edit: by the way, I never said I was a great debater.
I assume, when you write, that you are using the English language according to standard English usage. You said I had pretensions to being a great debater. That means I claimed or asserted to being a great debater. If I didn't say it, then how can you say that I claimed or asserted to be a great debater? When did I make that pretension?
Well, if you retract your statement, fine. You tell me, though. Apparently, you're using a different dictionary than I am.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
Seth, find where I said exactly : "that capitalism meant misery for the many..."
You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word exactly. If you don't understand a simple word of English, it's not surprising you don't understand much else.
( I'm being very generous in not saying you lied by the way )
Was my ACTUAL post so good that you had to falsify it to find fault? Quoting some of my actual words afterwards doesn't excuse the fact that you falsely claimed I said something that I did not.
You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word exactly. If you don't understand a simple word of English, it's not surprising you don't understand much else.
( I'm being very generous in not saying you lied by the way )
Was my ACTUAL post so good that you had to falsify it to find fault? Quoting some of my actual words afterwards doesn't excuse the fact that you falsely claimed I said something that I did not.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
There is nothing to retract. Look again at what I said. It's not what you quoted.Coito ergo sum wrote: Pretension: A claim or the assertion of a claim to something.
I assume, when you write, that you are using the English language according to standard English usage. You said I had pretensions to being a great debater. That means I claimed or asserted to being a great debater. If I didn't say it, then how can you say that I claimed or asserted to be a great debater? When did I make that pretension?
Well, if you retract your statement, fine. You tell me, though. Apparently, you're using a different dictionary than I am.
If you quote someone, it's down to you to do it right.
Don't change what I said, and expect me to retract.
Read it again, and perhaps you might like to retract. I don't mind if you don't, but in the interests of truth and accuracy, I thought you might like to.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
I'm not Seth, but if you're talking to me, I've already said this:mistermack wrote:Seth, find where I said exactly : "that capitalism meant misery for the many..."
You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word exactly. If you don't understand a simple word of English, it's not surprising you don't understand much else.
( I'm being very generous in not saying you lied by the way )
Was my ACTUAL post so good that you had to falsify it to find fault? Quoting some of my actual words afterwards doesn't excuse the fact that you falsely claimed I said something that I did not.
If you would clarify exactly what you were referring to there, I'd appreciate it. I thought it was capitalism that you thought was selfish and that capitalism was "pandering to selfishness." I already said I stood corrected on that. It's just not clear to me what you're referring to. It seemed like capitalism, but apparently it wasn't. Please clarify, if it's not too much trouble.When you said this, "You can worship the selfish instinct if you like. Run society by pandering to selfishness, and you end up with a great life for the few, and misery for the many," I thought you were referring to capitalism. If not, then I stand corrected.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
No trouble. I WAS replying to Seth, not you. If you read Seth's post, you should see the context.Coito ergo sum wrote: Please clarify, if it's not too much trouble.
I did mean Seth, not you in that reply.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
Capitalism creates the economic climate in which basic research and innovation can flourish because capitalism provides the necessary profits and therefore excess capital that can be diverted to basic scientific research that might be speculative.Psychoserenity wrote:Entirely responsible? That's quite a claim. Looking at how science and education has been funded over the last couple of centuries, I'd suggest that most of the advancements made in science, technology and education, happened in spite of capitalism, not because of it. Research for the sake of research is an inherently risky investment - there's no guarantee of any profit, and even if there eventually is, even with patent laws, there's no guarantee that the people who profit will be the initial investors.Seth wrote:Capitalism is entirely responsible for both the massive gains in living standard and mechanization as well as technology. Without investment capital and the promise of a free market for the mechanisms and goods produced with them, neither the mechanisms to produce the goods, nor the goods themselves, would exist.mistermack wrote:Incidentally, the massive gains in living standards are not all down to capitalism. They are mainly down to mechanisation and technology. Having said that, capitalism has played an important part in that, so it's clearly an important part of the mix. But capitalism on it's own, without the technology explosion, wouldn't have produced much improvement in living standards.
I also note that religion, specifically the Catholic church, was the primary supporter of education and science for an awfully long time. Most of the top colleges in the US were founded by churches. And churches don't tax people to support those educational institutions.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
"And churches don't tax people to support those educational institutions." 

Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
I agree with you CES. It was quite clear to me that he was referencing capitalism from the context of his post, not to mention the many other times he's railed against capitalism. Like this comment from a couple of posts ago: "I was referring of course to capitalism unfettered by any socialism."Coito ergo sum wrote:I'm not Seth, but if you're talking to me, I've already said this:mistermack wrote:Seth, find where I said exactly : "that capitalism meant misery for the many..."
You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word exactly. If you don't understand a simple word of English, it's not surprising you don't understand much else.
( I'm being very generous in not saying you lied by the way )
Was my ACTUAL post so good that you had to falsify it to find fault? Quoting some of my actual words afterwards doesn't excuse the fact that you falsely claimed I said something that I did not.If you would clarify exactly what you were referring to there, I'd appreciate it. I thought it was capitalism that you thought was selfish and that capitalism was "pandering to selfishness." I already said I stood corrected on that. It's just not clear to me what you're referring to. It seemed like capitalism, but apparently it wasn't. Please clarify, if it's not too much trouble.When you said this, "You can worship the selfish instinct if you like. Run society by pandering to selfishness, and you end up with a great life for the few, and misery for the many," I thought you were referring to capitalism. If not, then I stand corrected.
So it seems a lame and rather self-serving bit of obfuscation to now claim that he wasn't referring to capitalism versus communism (or socialism)
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
Seth, where do churches get their money from?
Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
Voluntary donations and investments in the US. They have no power to tax, nor can they receive government funds for their sectarian work. That would be unconstitutional. I've heard rumor that the Church of England gets some tax money, but that's just the stupidity of the Brits at work.Gawdzilla wrote:Seth, where do churches get their money from?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
So, if folks don't give to the church, they're going to hell. This is not a tax, of course, it's a voluntary donation. Or go to hell. Gotcha.Seth wrote:Voluntary donations and investments in the US. They have no power to tax, nor can they receive government funds for their sectarian work. That would be unconstitutional. I've heard rumor that the Church of England gets some tax money, but that's just the stupidity of the Brits at work.Gawdzilla wrote:Seth, where do churches get their money from?

Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
No church in the US I'm aware of says "pay up or go to hell," not even the Catholic church. If you have evidence (credible, critically robust evidence) to the contrary, rather than smelly ex-recto assertions, I'll be happy to give them due consideration.Gawdzilla wrote:So, if folks don't give to the church, they're going to hell. This is not a tax, of course, it's a voluntary donation. Or go to hell. Gotcha.Seth wrote:Voluntary donations and investments in the US. They have no power to tax, nor can they receive government funds for their sectarian work. That would be unconstitutional. I've heard rumor that the Church of England gets some tax money, but that's just the stupidity of the Brits at work.Gawdzilla wrote:Seth, where do churches get their money from?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
"Evidence"? Your kind of evidence back at you, then.Seth wrote:No church in the US I'm aware of says "pay up or go to hell," not even the Catholic church. If you have evidence (credible, critically robust evidence) to the contrary, rather than smelly ex-recto assertions, I'll be happy to give them due consideration.Gawdzilla wrote:So, if folks don't give to the church, they're going to hell. This is not a tax, of course, it's a voluntary donation. Or go to hell. Gotcha.Seth wrote:Voluntary donations and investments in the US. They have no power to tax, nor can they receive government funds for their sectarian work. That would be unconstitutional. I've heard rumor that the Church of England gets some tax money, but that's just the stupidity of the Brits at work.Gawdzilla wrote:Seth, where do churches get their money from?

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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
I think an ancient Roman (I know these things became more relaxed in the mediaeval period) would probably have preferred, "e recto".
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