Name three good things about religion.

[Seth]

I have a very elderly aunt who has fairly advanced alzheimer's.
She has been very moody and aggressive, clearly not happy.
The doctors have changed her drugs, she's now clearly happier, more pleased to see us, but is obviously less in touch with the world. On balance, I think she's better off.

That's like religion for some people. They are better off on the drug of religion, even though they are less in touch with reality. It keeps them happier, and on balance, probably better off.

Like all drugs, it's best not to over-do it, and better if you can live happily without it, but it would still be wrong to deny it to those who are sadly in need of it.

Precisely.

[Seth]

Seth is here to troll.

Which I support, in general.

Just be aware that Seth is here to troll.

He says as much in his signature.

Why is anyone surprised/upset?

I don't know about others, but I wouldn't like anyone to think I'm either surprised or upset about that wanker. I just find him fucking dull and pathetic.

Nobody requires you to attend the conversations. And, you'll find that if YOU aren't dull and pathetic, I'm not either.

And what's wrong with wanking, pray tell?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

K of C pancake breakfasts.

Bingo keeps the blue hairs off the roads.

[apophenia]

Nope. But I observe that religion very frequently, if not the vast majority of the time, offers solace, comfort and happiness to it's adherents. This is true of virtually all religions, and it's the reason that religion continues to exist and is adhered to to one degree or another by some 80 percent of the population of the planet.

How does one "observe" something providing solace and comfort? (Excluding a person or animal)

You seem to be implying that religion provides as much if not more solace and comfort than competing world views, such as atheism, secularism, science or skepticism — are you? And if so, how are you measuring how much solace and comfort these worldviews provide? (You can stick to Christian, general religion, and atheism if you like.)

Which religions provide the most solace and comfort? Do some religions offer very little solace and comfort? Are some religions better bargains than others, in terms of commitment per solace and comfort delivered?

If somebody measured the amount of solace and comfort delivered by sadomasochistic sexual practices and found it outperformed religion by 150%, would you become a sadomasochist?

[Gallstones]

Stalin installed himself as God of Russia, so his was a very religious reign.

The last hundred years are far different than the 34,000 that preceded. I concede that religion had utility up until now, but I think we are entering a transition period where the balance is swinging away from religion being cohesive and useful, toward religion being divisive and crippling.

If anything, the last hundred years has conclusively proven that religion is both necessary and desirable in a society, and that atheism is a clear and present danger to societal stability and continued existence.

Oh bullshit.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Stalin installed himself as God of Russia, so his was a very religious reign.

The last hundred years are far different than the 34,000 that preceded. I concede that religion had utility up until now, but I think we are entering a transition period where the balance is swinging away from religion being cohesive and useful, toward religion being divisive and crippling.

If anything, the last hundred years has conclusively proven that religion is both necessary and desirable in a society, and that atheism is a clear and present danger to societal stability and continued existence.

Oh bullshit.

What? You don't think the members in good standing in this community should be shot out of hand? C'mon. Seth says we're a danger, so like any rabid animal, one between the eyes would solve the problem.

Thanks, Seth.

[Gallstones]

Stalin installed himself as God of Russia, so his was a very religious reign.

The last hundred years are far different than the 34,000 that preceded. I concede that religion had utility up until now, but I think we are entering a transition period where the balance is swinging away from religion being cohesive and useful, toward religion being divisive and crippling.

If anything, the last hundred years has conclusively proven that religion is both necessary and desirable in a society, and that atheism is a clear and present danger to societal stability and continued existence.

Oh bullshit.

What? You don't think the members in good standing in this community should be shot out of hand? C'mon. Seth says we're a danger, so like any rabid animal, one between the eyes would solve the problem.

Thanks, Seth.

I'd have to start with myself so not to be a hypocrite.
I'll take mine in the heart please.



Before my lights go out I would like to know:

• What are the proofs that religion is both necessary and desirable in a society.
  And the proofs that atheism is a clear and present danger to societal stability and continued existence

I should know my sins before I die, in case I want to repent or something.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'd have to start with myself so not to be a hypocrite.
I'll take mine in the heart please.

Atheism fail. You should shove the children and old folks in front of the gun muzzles. That's the Seth version of atheism.

[Seth]

Nope. But I observe that religion very frequently, if not the vast majority of the time, offers solace, comfort and happiness to it's adherents. This is true of virtually all religions, and it's the reason that religion continues to exist and is adhered to to one degree or another by some 80 percent of the population of the planet.

How does one "observe" something providing solace and comfort? (Excluding a person or animal)

Nice try at limiting the scope of the response, but it won't work. One "observes" that religion provides solace and comfort by observing people who take solace and comfort from religion.

You seem to be implying that religion provides as much if not more solace and comfort than competing world views, such as atheism, secularism, science or skepticism — are you?

Indeed I am.

And if so, how are you measuring how much solace and comfort these worldviews provide? (You can stick to Christian, general religion, and atheism if you like.)

One metric would be the number of people who hold religious beliefs, which is something like 80 percent of the population of the planet. One needs to ask why 80 percent of the planetary population hold to some form of religion. I don't think a credible argument can be made that it's some authoritarian aspect of religion, given that such authoritarian actions by governments lead to governments being overthrown, and yet religions are almost never overthrown.

I think its reasonable to say that religion persists because it provides that which people seek, and I don't think it's going too far to say that people seek peace, solace, comfort and support in general, and that religion provides this to many people.

I see no claims on the part of atheism (which I believe is defined simply as "a lack of belief in gods" by those who deny that atheism can be a religion in itself) regarding any sort of comfort or support provided by the classic formulation. Do you?

I've seen Dawkins ask the rhetorical question as to why people need God and can't be satisfied with the beauty of nature, but I've not seen him actually address why people adhere to religion. He merely discounts it as "delusion." Some solace that provides.

Which religions provide the most solace and comfort? Do some religions offer very little solace and comfort? Are some religions better bargains than others, in terms of commitment per solace and comfort delivered?

I don't know, possibly, and it appears to be highly individualized.

If somebody measured the amount of solace and comfort delivered by sadomasochistic sexual practices and found it outperformed religion by 150%, would you become a sadomasochist?

It would depend on whether I had to be the Sado or the Masochist. But if that's what gives people solace and comfort, and pleasure, who am I to judge them. So long as their activities are consensual, it's none of my business.

Likewise, so long as the practitioners are doing so peaceably, as a Tolerist™ it's my duty to tolerate whatever activities they engage in that provide them with pleasure, joy, solace, comfort and spiritual guidance.

[Seth]

Stalin installed himself as God of Russia, so his was a very religious reign.

The last hundred years are far different than the 34,000 that preceded. I concede that religion had utility up until now, but I think we are entering a transition period where the balance is swinging away from religion being cohesive and useful, toward religion being divisive and crippling.

If anything, the last hundred years has conclusively proven that religion is both necessary and desirable in a society, and that atheism is a clear and present danger to societal stability and continued existence.

Oh bullshit.

What? You don't think the members in good standing in this community should be shot out of hand? C'mon. Seth says we're a danger, so like any rabid animal, one between the eyes would solve the problem.

Thanks, Seth.

You make your bed, you can lie in it. If Atheists quit acting like dicks to everybody else, maybe they would be more accepted. So far, Atheism (the religious variety) has proven to be very, very dangerous to everyone else, so at the very least, it's prudent to be wary of Atheists.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You make your bed, you can lie in it. If Atheists quit acting like dicks to everybody else, maybe they would be more accepted. So far, Atheism (the religious variety) has proven to be very, very dangerous to everyone else, so at the very least, it's prudent to be wary of Atheists.

You're an expert in the dick bed department. Stupid generalizations work on you as well as the members in good standing of this community.

[Gallstones]

I don't act like a dick to anybody who doesn't deserve it--they earn it first.
And my being a dick has nothing whatsoever to do with my faith or lack of faith or religion or lack of religion.



I think that giving aid, solace and comfort is a human trait and the credit for that trait is usurped by religion.
Most people who are atheist make no issue of it and most people don't even know they are acquainted with, or in the presence of, an atheist.

Since most people claim to be theistic or religious and yet are still dicks--most dicks are theistic or religious.
It is a percentage thing involving a human triat.

End of.

[Robert_S]

Atheists? It looks to me like what a lot of these communists have done is convert from an old-time religion with supernatural entities to a new religion with human entities taking on supernatural qualities. What is the huge difference between Caesar worship and what they've done with Dear Departed Leader in N. Korea?

[amused]

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
US physicist (1933 - )

[Seabass]

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
US physicist (1933 - )

Well, that's obviously false. Consider any war for example. Many non-religious, non-evil soldiers have done terrible things in wartime. Or Stalin/Mao era Communism? Not all commies were evil, but they helped an evil ideology kill hundreds of millions. Not all Germans who supported the 3rd Reich were evil. Not all Americans who supported the Vietnam war were evil. Not all British who supported the Empire were evil. A woman who kills her rapist isn't necessarily evil. An abused child who stabs his abusive father isn't necessarily evil.

We're pretty good at doing evil things with or without religion. We're also pretty good at doing wonderful, amazing things with or without religion. Religion ain't got shit to do with it really, it's just another excuse.