Like biker gangs these days. Nothing changes.Clinton Huxley wrote:Aye. Hunter gatherers have to move about, can't carry much in the way of possessions with them and need to co-operate if anyone is going to have mammoth steaks for tea. Such societes were generally less stratified. Well, at least according to the book I was just reading (Before the Dawn by Nicholas Wade).Psychoserenity wrote:Nonsense. Throughout the vast majority of our evolution we lived in mostly egalitarian communities.
Unfortunately, the evidence seems to be they were also shockingly violent.
The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
Will do.Tero wrote:Yes, link that book in my Ancient People thread please.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
How will things "improve further" once there are no more resources on the planet left to exploit, but there are still more and more hungry mouths to feed?Xamonas Chegwé wrote:...It is only in the last century that human ingenuity has had the capability to overcome world hunger without going to war and wiping out half of the hungry mouths. Things will only improve further if we acknowledge that fact, rather than harking back to the past.
I disagree.Seabass wrote:...Our love of stuff hasn't increased...

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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
They were also very small groups, and lived subsistence lifestyles. They were on the edge of starvation.Clinton Huxley wrote:Aye. Hunter gatherers have to move about, can't carry much in the way of possessions with them and need to co-operate if anyone is going to have mammoth steaks for tea. Such societes were generally less stratified. Well, at least according to the book I was just reading (Before the Dawn by Nicholas Wade).Psychoserenity wrote:Nonsense. Throughout the vast majority of our evolution we lived in mostly egalitarian communities.
Unfortunately, the evidence seems to be they were also shockingly violent.
They also didn't have a welfare system or a safety net. If you wanted to eat, you had to work, and there was no free medical care and the human right to a college education was universally denied.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
People will die if there isn't food to feed them. That much is obvious.Horwood Beer-Master wrote:How will things "improve further" once there are no more resources on the planet left to exploit, but there are still more and more hungry mouths to feed?Xamonas Chegwé wrote:...It is only in the last century that human ingenuity has had the capability to overcome world hunger without going to war and wiping out half of the hungry mouths. Things will only improve further if we acknowledge that fact, rather than harking back to the past.
That's why we need a much bigger manned space programs.
The dinosaurs went extinct because they didn't have a space program. We ought to take a lesson from that.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
Coito ergo sum wrote:People will die if there isn't food to feed them. That much is obvious.Horwood Beer-Master wrote:How will things "improve further" once there are no more resources on the planet left to exploit, but there are still more and more hungry mouths to feed?Xamonas Chegwé wrote:...It is only in the last century that human ingenuity has had the capability to overcome world hunger without going to war and wiping out half of the hungry mouths. Things will only improve further if we acknowledge that fact, rather than harking back to the past.
That's why we need a much bigger manned space programs...

Wait you're serious?

Whilst I couldn't agree more that we need much bigger manned space programmes, the idea of these programmes as a solution to world hunger is absurd! We could never bring resources to earth (or send people out to the resources) at anywhere like the rate that would be necessary to keep up with exponentially expanding demand. Not without somehow curbing that demand (which itself would either cause, or require, the death of capitalism in any form worth calling by the name).
The idea of humans like capitalist locusts, leaving a ravaged Earth to boldly exploit pastures new may make good science fiction, but it's lousy science fact.
If anything, the conquest of space would require an extraordinary laying aside of personal interest on the part of those involved to stand a hope of being a success.

Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
Perhaps you've never seen WALL-E.


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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
Capitalism isn't the cause of world hunger.Horwood Beer-Master wrote:Coito ergo sum wrote:People will die if there isn't food to feed them. That much is obvious.Horwood Beer-Master wrote:How will things "improve further" once there are no more resources on the planet left to exploit, but there are still more and more hungry mouths to feed?Xamonas Chegwé wrote:...It is only in the last century that human ingenuity has had the capability to overcome world hunger without going to war and wiping out half of the hungry mouths. Things will only improve further if we acknowledge that fact, rather than harking back to the past.
That's why we need a much bigger manned space programs...![]()
Wait you're serious?![]()
Whilst I couldn't agree more that we need much bigger manned space programmes, the idea of these programmes as a solution to world hunger is absurd! We could never bring resources to earth (or send people out to the resources) at anywhere like the rate that would be necessary to keep up with exponentially expanding demand. Not without somehow curbing that demand (which itself would either cause, or require, the death of capitalism in any form worth calling by the name).
Arguably, capitalism helps, because it is in the capitalist West where population levels are the most stable. In non-capitalist third-world countries, we get the highest increases in population.
It's just a fact that the US human race will go extinct much sooner if we stay cooped up on Earth than if we put some eggs in another basket. I'm not talking about a scale of years or decades to accomplish that. I would think we're talking about the order of a century or more. That isn't very long, though, in real terms. It seems long when we're young, but it's just around the corner. 100 years - 200 years - that's the time scale we need to be thinking about.Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
The idea of humans like capitalist locusts, leaving a ravaged Earth to boldly exploit pastures new may make good science fiction, but it's lousy science fact.
If anything, the conquest of space would require an extraordinary laying aside of personal interest on the part of those involved to stand a hope of being a success.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
I think we will get to communal land soon. You can just rent it. Already happening in Japan.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
Capitalism requires economic growth, 'economic growth' is ultimately a measure of the exploitation of the planets resources. The planets resources are limited. Do the maths.Coito ergo sum wrote:...Capitalism isn't the cause of world hunger...
The consumption levels of the population in the capitalist west are not stable - capitalism in the west would end if they were.Coito ergo sum wrote:...Arguably, capitalism helps, because it is in the capitalist West where population levels are the most stable...
Capitalism is very much present in most of these third-world countries you refer to. Indeed it needs their 'increasing population' to keep the sweat shops running.Coito ergo sum wrote:...In non-capitalist third-world countries, we get the highest increases in population...
That's all true enough (although I believe we can get a small Mars colony going in less than a decade if we really went for it), but it's totally irrelevant to the subject you originally raised of using bigger manned space programs to keep the population fed.Coito ergo sum wrote:...It's just a fact that the US human race will go extinct much sooner if we stay cooped up on Earth than if we put some eggs in another basket. I'm not talking about a scale of years or decades to accomplish that. I would think we're talking about the order of a century or more. That isn't very long, though, in real terms. It seems long when we're young, but it's just around the corner. 100 years - 200 years - that's the time scale we need to be thinking about.
I'm not concerned about some globally catastrophic Malthusian crisis wiping out our species - there will be some surviving scumbags whatever happens. I just want to avoid such an event for it's own sake.

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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
We have the only resource we have ever had (or will ever need) shining about 96 million miles away. All of the energy from our fossil fuels, biodiesel, nuclear reactors and wind turbines ultimately came from there. We don't utilise a tiny fraction of the sunlight that falls on the Earth.Horwood Beer-Master wrote:How will things "improve further" once there are no more resources on the planet left to exploit, but there are still more and more hungry mouths to feed?Xamonas Chegwé wrote:...It is only in the last century that human ingenuity has had the capability to overcome world hunger without going to war and wiping out half of the hungry mouths. Things will only improve further if we acknowledge that fact, rather than harking back to the past.
There are artificially developed microorganisms that can produce diesel fuel directly from CO2 and sunlight. There are tanks full of them in deserts across the world running viability studies right now. The big oil companies are nearly all investing heavily in this technology (with the notable exception of BP, who prefer to drill safely in the Gulf of Mexico...

This is a single example of how technological innovation can overcome the energy crisis - there are many others.
Read this book for more examples of what man's ingenuity can achieve when it has to!
Of course, if you would rather wallow in the comforting certainty of pessimistic doom and gloom, that's good too.

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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
Nothing comforting about it.Xamonas Chegwé wrote:...Of course, if you would rather wallow in the comforting certainty of pessimistic doom and gloom, that's good too.![]()
And our resource needs go far further than Energy.
And also, even if it were (magically) possible to support an indefinite number of Homo sapiens on this here rock - who the hell would want to live in such a world?

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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
Frank Zappa is in my top five favourite musician/composers - actually my top three. Make that my top #1 of all time.
But his politics were crude, ill thought through and really quite dumb. He didn't know what the fuck he was talking about most of the time in fact and embarrassed himself regularly.
People can and have organized themselves in all sorts of ways. Just because the prevailing model is about atomised individuals seeking and maximising wealth for themselves it does not mean other more utilitarian models won't inevitably replace it.
But his politics were crude, ill thought through and really quite dumb. He didn't know what the fuck he was talking about most of the time in fact and embarrassed himself regularly.
People can and have organized themselves in all sorts of ways. Just because the prevailing model is about atomised individuals seeking and maximising wealth for themselves it does not mean other more utilitarian models won't inevitably replace it.
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
The population growth rate is reducing worldwide. In some countries, Russia for example, it is actually negative! The only places where it is increasing are the poorest, least technologically advanced countries - mainly in sub-Saharan Africa - and where theocratic regimes prohibit women's emancipation and reproductive control. As the level of technology rises and access to education (especially for women) improves in a country, the birthrate drops - there are no exceptions!Horwood Beer-Master wrote:Nothing comforting about it.Xamonas Chegwé wrote:...Of course, if you would rather wallow in the comforting certainty of pessimistic doom and gloom, that's good too.![]()
And our resource needs go far further than Energy.
And also, even if it were (magically) possible to support an indefinite number of Homo sapiens on this here rock - who the hell would want to live in such a world?
Like I said, read Mark Stevenson's book. I am merely paraphrasing. He makes a very convincing case.
A book is a version of the world. If you do not like it, ignore it; or offer your own version in return.
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Who needs a meaning anyway, I'd settle anyday for a very fine view.
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This is the wrong forum for bluffing
Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
Calilasseia
I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
Twoflower
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Salman Rushdie
You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
House MD
Who needs a meaning anyway, I'd settle anyday for a very fine view.
Sandy Denny
This is the wrong forum for bluffing

Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
Calilasseia
I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
Twoflower
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Re: The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa
It won't matter if the population stabilises if it's consumption of resources doesn't.
And also I'm very wary of predictions regarding population growth slowing. Even if most people around the world start to have less kids, it only takes a few people still having large broods to eventually screw everything up - just as long as they culturally pass-on to at least a few of their offspring the tendency to have large broods themselves. Eventually 'big breeders' become the majority again.
Plus I can't think of a single such book from decades past that doesn't (at least in places or by it's omissions) look silly now that we've actually arrived at the "future".
And also I'm very wary of predictions regarding population growth slowing. Even if most people around the world start to have less kids, it only takes a few people still having large broods to eventually screw everything up - just as long as they culturally pass-on to at least a few of their offspring the tendency to have large broods themselves. Eventually 'big breeders' become the majority again.
I tend not to read 'polemic' books by individuals on sociopolitical subjects ( particularly regarding "the future") - as they nearly always turn out to be a lot of highly subjective dross built on cherry-picked evidence.Xamonas Chegwé wrote:...Like I said, read Mark Stevenson's book...
Plus I can't think of a single such book from decades past that doesn't (at least in places or by it's omissions) look silly now that we've actually arrived at the "future".

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