The Fatal Flaw of Communism - by Frank Zappa

[Coito ergo sum]

In every language, the first word after "Mama!" that every kid learns to say is "Mine!" A system that doesn't allow ownership, that doesn't allow you to say "Mine!" when you grow up, has -- to put it mildly -- a fatal design flaw.
From the time Mr. Developing Nation was forced to read The Little Red Book in exchange for a blob of rice, till the time he figured out that waiting in line for a loaf of pumpernickel was boring as fuck, took about three generations....
Decades of indoctrination, manipulation, censorship and KGB excursions haven't altered this fact: People want a piece of their own little Something-or-Other, and, if they don't get it, have a tendency to initiate counterrevolution.
-- Frank Zappa

[Tero]

It's our destiny! Easter Island, last tree. Otherwise, there is only communism.

[Animavore]

I don't remember Collapse being an endorsement of communism but rather a warning against over using resources.

[John_fi_Skye]

It's human nature, isn't it? Acquisitiveness is so strongly hard-wired into us that communism sadly has no chance. It's been tried in various places, and always falls down, because while we're all happy enough to take what we need (and more), we seldom find it easy to give all we can. As a society, we may intellectualise about altruism being a Good Thing; but a species, we find it very hard to practise. If suddenly 6,999,999,999 of us became communists, the one capitalist who was left would have us all converted back in a year or two.

[PsychoSerenity]

Nonsense. Throughout the vast majority of our evolution we lived in mostly egalitarian communities. The rampant consumerism we have today is a very modern occurrence and is driven mainly by status anxiety from living in a system that promises us a fair share as long as we keep competing, yet rarely delivers. And there have been plenty of psychology studies that show that what makes people happy simply isn't having more stuff, even if they don't know it.

[Tero]

I don't remember Collapse being an endorsement of communism but rather a warning against over using resources.

You can feed 20 billion people any way you like. Communism will work.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Nonsense. Throughout the vast majority of our evolution we lived in mostly egalitarian communities. The rampant consumerism we have today is a very modern occurrence and is driven mainly by status anxiety from living in a system that promises us a fair share as long as we keep competing, yet rarely delivers. And there have been plenty of psychology studies that show that what makes people happy simply isn't having more stuff, even if they don't know it.

But what makes people really really really sad is having less stuff than they fundamentally need! That is why people (understandably) extrapolate that to the belief that having MOAR will make them happier and having A FUCKING LOT MOAR will make them really happy!

Grabbing all that you can, just in case things start running out, is perfectly natural - even squirrels do it!

Oh, and those ancient, egalitarian societies that you speak of... Did they have no kings? Chieftains? Elders? Wise men? Shamen? High priests? Anointed ones? nobody at all that ruled the roost, made sure that they got theirs before anyone else and decided how much could be spared for the cesspit diggers and mammoth flayers?

Thought not...


Social responsibility (and hence, socialism) is only applicable where there is at least enough basic resources for all - harking back to a prior "golden age" where all worked for the good of the community is fantasy - it never ever happened in human history! It is only in the last century that human ingenuity has had the capability to overcome world hunger without going to war and wiping out half of the hungry mouths. Things will only improve further if we acknowledge that fact, rather than harking back to the past.

[Tero]

It was pretty much the clan for 30 000 years. Clan has both communal and competitive sides.

[Seabass]

Nonsense. Throughout the vast majority of our evolution we lived in mostly egalitarian communities. The rampant consumerism we have today is a very modern occurrence and is driven mainly by status anxiety from living in a system that promises us a fair share as long as we keep competing, yet rarely delivers. And there have been plenty of psychology studies that show that what makes people happy simply isn't having more stuff, even if they don't know it.

Nonsense. "Egalitarian communities"? Surely, you jest. People used to be legally allowed to own other people for Christ's sake.

The "rampant consumerism" we have today is made possible by increased efficiency in manufacturing, production, and transport processes which are in turn made possible by modern technology, specialization, advanced education.

People have always liked "stuff". Our love of stuff hasn't increased, our ability produce it and buy it has.

[Tero]

People weren't such a good investment unless you got them to breed.

People have been fucked up ever since we came down from the trees. Even before. So we were never Hobbits.

[Tero]

The communists on Easter Island would have put Fearless Leader's hut under the last tree. He would then allow a few cuttings to his favorite soldiers, to plant as new trees.

[Coito ergo sum]

It's human nature, isn't it? Acquisitiveness is so strongly hard-wired into us that communism sadly has no chance.

I wonder if you can explain something to me. Why "sadly?" What would be good about a communist society?

As a society, we may intellectualise about altruism being a Good Thing; but a species, we find it very hard to practise. If suddenly 6,999,999,999 of us became communists, the one capitalist who was left would have us all converted back in a year or two.

And, how is communism altruistic?

[Atheist-Lite]

Communism is dead. It ain't coming back. It was a dumb idea anyway. The only people fooled by it are those who can't count. I'm not saying capitalism is any better. It appears to be going the same way. Maybe we need a new batch of ideas? Digging a deceased Zappa up to comment on a equally dead ideology must be a intentional pun by someone smarter than most here? I can see this thread being popular and providing plenty of amusement for the ubermensch?

[Clinton Huxley]

Nonsense. Throughout the vast majority of our evolution we lived in mostly egalitarian communities.

Aye. Hunter gatherers have to move about, can't carry much in the way of possessions with them and need to co-operate if anyone is going to have mammoth steaks for tea. Such societes were generally less stratified. Well, at least according to the book I was just reading (Before the Dawn by Nicholas Wade).

Unfortunately, the evidence seems to be they were also shockingly violent.

[Tero]

Yes, link that book in my Ancient People thread please.