Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

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Do you agree with Christopher Hitchens' arguments in favor of the Iraq War?

Yes
5
28%
No
11
61%
No opinion/bacon and cheddar
2
11%
 
Total votes: 18

Coito ergo sum
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Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:53 pm

The issue has come up in the thread about The Hitch's death that some people were quite irked by his position on the Iraq War.

I'd like to address the arguments made by The Hitch in favor of the war. If you disagree with his arguments, then try to address what he has said and explain why you don't accept it.
"I began from the viewpoint of one who took the side of the Iraqi and Kurdish opposition to Saddam Hussein, who hoped for their victory, and who had come to believe that the chiefest and gravest mistake of Western and especially American statecraft had been to reconfirm Saddam Hussein in power in 1991" (Hitchens, v).
Hitchens argued the following in an article 4 years into the War:
Was the president right or wrong to go to the United Nations in September 2002 and to say that body could no longer tolerate Saddam Hussein's open flouting of its every significant resolution, from weaponry to human rights to terrorism?

A majority of the member states thought he was right and had to admit that the credibility of the United Nations was at stake. It was scandalous that such a regime could for more than a decade have violated the spirit and the letter of the resolutions that had allowed a cease-fire after the liberation of Kuwait. The Security Council, including Syria, voted by nine votes to zero that Iraq must come into full compliance or face serious consequences.

Was it then correct to send military forces to the Gulf, in case Saddam continued his long policy of defiance, concealment, and expulsion or obstruction of U.N. inspectors?

If you understand the history of the inspection process at all, you must concede that Saddam would never have agreed to readmit the inspectors if coalition forces had not made their appearance on his borders and in the waters of the Gulf. It was never a choice between inspection and intervention: It was only the believable threat of an intervention that enabled even limited inspections to resume.

Should it not have been known by Western intelligence that Iraq had no stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction?

The entire record of UNSCOM until that date had shown a determination on the part of the Iraqi dictatorship to build dummy facilities to deceive inspectors, to refuse to allow scientists to be interviewed without coercion, to conceal chemical and biological deposits, and to search the black market for materiel that would breach the sanctions. The defection of Saddam Hussein's sons-in-law, the Kamel brothers, had shown that this policy was even more systematic than had even been suspected. Moreover, Iraq did not account for—has in fact never accounted for—a number of the items that it admitted under pressure to possessing after the Kamel defection. We still do not know what happened to this weaponry. This is partly why allWestern intelligence agencies, including French and German ones quite uninfluenced by Ahmad Chalabi, believed that Iraq had actual or latent programs for the production of WMD. Would it have been preferable to accept Saddam Hussein's word for it and to allow him the chance to re-equip once more once the sanctions had further decayed?

Could Iraq have been believably "inspected" while the Baath Party remained in power?

No. The word inspector is misleading here. The small number of U.N. personnel were not supposed to comb the countryside. They were supposed to monitor the handover of the items on Iraq's list, to check them, and then to supervise their destruction. (If Iraq disposed of the items in any other way—by burying or destroying or neutralizing them, as now seems possible—that would have been an additional grave breach of the resolutions.) To call for serious and unimpeachable inspections was to call, in effect, for a change of regime in Iraq. Thus, we can now say that Iraq is in compliance with the Nonproliferation Treaty.Moreover, the subsequent hasty compliance of Col. Muammar Qaddafi's Libya and the examination of his WMD stockpile (which proved to be much larger and more sophisticated than had been thought) allowed us to trace the origin of much materielto Pakistan and thus belatedly to shut down the A.Q. Khan secret black market.
Wasn't Colin Powell's performance at the United Nations a bit of a disgrace?

Yes, it was, as was the supporting role played by George Tenet and the CIA (which has been reliably wrong on Iraq since 1963). Some good legal experts—Ruth Wedgwood most notably—have argued that the previous resolutions were self-enforcing and that there was no need for a second resolution or for Powell's dog-and-pony show. Some say that the whole thing was done in order to save Tony Blair's political skin. A few points of interest did emerge from Powell's presentation: The Iraqi authorities were caught on air trying to mislead U.N inspectors (nothing new there), and the presence in Iraq of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a very dangerous al-Qaida refugee from newly liberated Afghanistan, was established. The full significance of this was only to become evident later on.

Was the terror connection not exaggerated?

Not by much. The Bush administration never claimed that Iraq had any hand in the events of Sept. 11, 2001. But it did point out, at different times, that Saddam had acted as a host and patron to every other terrorist gang in the region, most recently including the most militant Islamist ones. And this has never been contested by anybody. The action was undertaken not to punish the last attack—that had been done in Afghanistan—but to forestall the next one.

Was a civil war not predictable?

Only to the extent that there was pre-existing unease and mistrust between the different population groups in Iraq. Since it was the policy of Saddam Hussein to govern by divide-and-rule and precisely to exacerbate these differences, it is unlikely that civil peace would have been the result of prolonging his regime. Indeed, so ghastly was his system in this respect that one-fifth of Iraq's inhabitants—the Kurds—had already left Iraq and were living under Western protection.

So, you seriously mean to say that we would not be living in a better or safer world if the coalition forces had turned around and sailed or flown home in the spring of 2003?

That's exactly what I mean to say.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... _iraq.html


In 2008, Hitch wrote this:
We were never, if we are honest with ourselves, "lied into war".

We became steadily more aware that the option was continued collusion with Saddam or a decision to have done with him.

The President's speech to the UN on September 12, 2002, laying out the considered case that it was time to face the Iraqi tyrant, too, with this choice, was easily the best speech of his two-term tenure and by far the most misunderstood.

That speech is widely and wrongly believed to have focused on only two aspects of the problem, namely the refusal of Saddam's regime to come into compliance on the resolutions concerning weapons of mass destruction and the involvement of the Baathists with a whole nexus of nihilist and Islamist terror groups.

Baghdad's outrageous flouting of the resolutions on compliance (if not necessarily the maintenance of blatant, as opposed to latent, WMD capacity) remains a huge and easily demonstrable breach of international law. The role of Baathist Iraq in forwarding and aiding the merchants of suicide terror actually proves to be deeper and worse, on the latest professional estimate, than most people had believed or than the Bush administration had suggested.

This is all overshadowed by the unarguable hash that was made of the intervention itself.

But I would nonetheless maintain that this incompetence doesn't condemn the enterprise wholesale.

A much-wanted war criminal was put on public trial.

The Kurdish and Shi'ite majority was rescued from the ever-present threat of a renewed genocide.

A huge, hideous military and party apparatus, directed at internal repression and external aggression was (perhaps overhastily) dismantled.

The largest wetlands in the region, habitat of the historic Marsh Arabs, have been largely recuperated.

Huge fresh oilfields have been found, including in formerly oil-free Sunni provinces, and some important initial investment in them made. Elections have been held, and the outline of a federal system has been proposed as the only alternative to a) a sectarian despotism and b) a sectarian partition and fragmentation. Not unimportantly, a battlefield defeat has been inflicted on al-Qa'ida and its surrogates, who (not without some Baathist collaboration) had hoped to constitute the successor regime in a failed state and an imploded society.

Further afield, a perfectly defensible case can be made that the Syrian Baathists would not have evacuated Lebanon, nor would the Gaddafi gang have turned over Libya's (much larger than anticipated) stock of WMD, if not for the ripple effect of the removal of the region's keystone dictatorship. None of these positive developments took place without a good deal of bungling and cruelty, and unintended consequences of their own.

I don't know of a satisfactory way of evaluating one against the other any more than I quite know how to balance the disgrace of Abu Ghraib, say, against the digging up of Saddam's immense network of mass graves. There is, however, one position that nobody can honestly hold but that many people try their best to hold. And that is what I call the Bishop Berkeley theory of Iraq, whereby if a country collapses and succumbs to trauma, and it's not our immediate fault or direct responsibility, then it doesn't count, and we are not involved.

Nonetheless, the thing that most repels people when they contemplate Iraq, which is the chaos and misery and fragmentation (and the deliberate intensification and augmentation of all this by the jihadis), invites the inescapable question: What would post-Saddam Iraq have looked like without a coalition presence?

The past years have seen us both shamed and threatened by the implications of the Berkeleyan attitude, from Burma to Rwanda to Darfur.

Had we decided to attempt the right thing in those cases (you will notice that I say attempt rather than do, which cannot be known in advance), we could as glibly have been accused of embarking on "a war of choice". But the thing to remember about Iraq is that all or most choice had already been forfeited.

We were already deeply involved in the life and death struggle of that country, and March 2003 happens to mark the only time that we decided to intervene, after a protracted and open public debate, on the right side and for the right reasons. This must, and still does, count for something.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/di ... 1115840625

One can also see his pre-2003 articles from Slate.com on the internet, and also collected together in A Long Short War.

I can't repost everything he has written on the subject, so I'll leave it to anyone who thinks he's wrong. What do you like about his arguments, and what don't you like about his arguments?

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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:56 pm

I see historians shedding much ink over this war.
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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by Audley Strange » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:10 pm

My disagreement was not so much on the necessity of military intervention as much as it was his seemingly deliberate omission of caution and his unguarded vocal support for a debaclé which I am uncertain was not in fact more detrimental to our security because of the way it was handled and in fact suspected much before they even started the terrorism campaign of shock and awe. From that moment it was clear we were looking at some kind of reactionary war fever, not a clinical and rational excising of a lunatic. The mission was a shambles from the moment they thought it up, ill timed, mendaciously promoted and exceedingly costly both financially and in terms of lives lost.
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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by JimC » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:55 am

Audley Strange wrote:My disagreement was not so much on the necessity of military intervention as much as it was his seemingly deliberate omission of caution and his unguarded vocal support for a debaclé which I am uncertain was not in fact more detrimental to our security because of the way it was handled and in fact suspected much before they even started the terrorism campaign of shock and awe. From that moment it was clear we were looking at some kind of reactionary war fever, not a clinical and rational excising of a lunatic. The mission was a shambles from the moment they thought it up, ill timed, mendaciously promoted and exceedingly costly both financially and in terms of lives lost.
Although I think that, in balance, the war was justified, there is a lot of this post that I agree with. It was a stuff-up in many dimensions, and is yet another sorry example of the inability of the US to manage the political dimensions of warfare...
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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by Seth » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:28 am

He's dead. He can't agree with anything and never will anymore, as he himself insists. Do I agree with his pontifications? Don't know, haven't read them, see no need to do so since he's neither an expert on military strategy and international geopolitics, and, well, he's dead, dead, dead so who cares what he isn't thinking because he's dead.

As to the Iraq war, the initial justifications were strong and taking down Saddam was absolutely necessary. Nation-rebuilding...not so much.

We should have hunted down Saddam, killed him, and immediately left the country to its own devices without spending a dime more than required to destroy our enemies and their capacity to make war on us or our allies.

Fucking George Bush Sr. should have done that the FIRST time around, for fuck's sake, and saved US taxpayers nearly a trillion dollars.

But, all in all, the Iraq war was the most decisive and astonishing victory for the United States of any war in human history. Fewer than 5000 American soldiers were killed in the decade-long war, and that's fewer than we lost on Omaha Beach alone on D-Day. Fucking brilliant military tactics and strategy.

But we should have been out of there the day after Saddam was captured.

Fuck the wogs if they can't live together in peace. Let them go back to making war with Iran. At least back then Iran was too busy making martyrs for the rest of Iran and Iraq to wipe their asses with the bones of to build nuclear weapons. We should have kept that conflict going at least another century, just to keep the wogs busy destroying one another's infrastructure and economies so they couldn't threaten the rest of the planet with NBC WMD's.
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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by JimC » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:41 am

Wogs... :roll:

Very enlightened, but expected from you, I suppose...

Fuck off, Seth...
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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by Rum » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:46 am

Much of the uncertainty about the wisdom of the invasion comes from the appearance that it was in fact retaliation for 9/11. It looked very much to many people like the USA lashing out in anger and revenge almost for the sake of it when there was no apparent link between Iraq and those who flew the planes that dreadful day. Here in the UK Blaire's enthusiastic pursuit of a 'dossier' of evidence to justify our participation was so unconvincing that one could not but suspect it was already all sewn up between him and Bush (as it surely was). He didn't even bring the issue to parliament until after he was committed and discussions in the Cabinet were somewhat limited. So there was mistrust about the wisdom or the necessity from the beginning.

As to the wisdom. War is rarely wise and who knows how the world would look if it had no happened. Rather different I suspect. It is good Saddam has gone. But the aftermath was awful and that was the responsibility of those who invaded without thinking too much beyond the end of their rifles.

Oh - and plus one to Jim's remark.

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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by Seth » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:49 am

JimC wrote:Wogs... :roll:

Very enlightened, but expected from you, I suppose...

Fuck off, Seth...
No, YOU fuck off, Jim...
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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by Clinton Huxley » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:53 am

Hmmmm. I don't know, really. The justification for the war was made up, the aftermath was woefully mishandled, hundreds of thousands perished, international terrorism strengthened and Iranian influence increased. On the other hand, Saddam was a git who deserved a spanking. What ya gonna do?
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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by Seth » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:59 am

Rum wrote:Much of the uncertainty about the wisdom of the invasion comes from the appearance that it was in fact retaliation for 9/11. It looked very much to many people like the USA lashing out in anger and revenge almost for the sake of it when there was no apparent link between Iraq and those who flew the planes that dreadful day.
Except that there WERE links between Al Quaeda and Saddam, and Hamas and Saddam, and a whole bunch of other global terrorist organizations and Saddam, and Saddam and WMD's, including Sarin-filled artillery shells he used on the Kurds and his vigorous attempts (only a decade later shown to be false ploys) to convince the entire world that he WAS running nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs, as he himself admitted after his capture.

Frankly, I don't give a fuck what the hoi-polloi ignoramuses who were outside the classified intelligence loop thought. Even Hillary Clinton was convinced enough to sign the Congressional authorization for re-entry into Iraq, and that's good enough for me.
Here in the UK Blaire's enthusiastic pursuit of a 'dossier' of evidence to justify our participation was so unconvincing that one could not but suspect it was already all sewn up between him and Bush (as it surely was).
Yeah, it was, and with good, full and reasonable justifications based on the actionable intelligence available to Bush and Blair, and everybody else in the know, AT THE TIME. Armchair quarterbacking hindsight is always 20/20. It's not quite so fucking simple when you're the man on the hot seat who has been elected to make such decisions based on the best AVAILABLE evidence.
He didn't even bring the issue to parliament until after he was committed and discussions in the Cabinet were somewhat limited. So there was mistrust about the wisdom or the necessity from the beginning.
Er, that's why they call it "top-secret intelligence." It's because every swinging cod in Parliament doesn't need to know about it because they will just blow the intel and compromise the sources if Blair had been full and open. He was elected to make these sorts of tough decisions, and so was Bush, and the public owes them a duty of deference to that granted authority, particularly when it's based on information the public doesn't have, and doesn't need to have.
As to the wisdom. War is rarely wise and who knows how the world would look if it had no happened. Rather different I suspect. It is good Saddam has gone. But the aftermath was awful and that was the responsibility of those who invaded without thinking too much beyond the end of their rifles.
Yeah, shoulda just whacked Saddam and his offspring, and wiped out the Feydaeen and the Republican Guard, smashed all his infrastructure and oil facilities, destroyed his military hardware, palaces and CCC centers, and left. We could have done that with stand-off weapons like cruise missiles and aircraft without having to commit many ground troops at all.

Oh - and plus one to Jim's remark.[/quote]

Right back atcha, Rum.
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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by Seth » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:03 am

Clinton Huxley wrote:Hmmmm. I don't know, really. The justification for the war was made up,
No it wasn't. It was based on actionable intelligence and Saddam's refusal to abide by the UN sanctions and the Cease Fire agreement, and was fully and completely justified before we re-entered Iraq, and both Congressional and Allied legislatures approved the re-invasion.
the aftermath was woefully mishandled, hundreds
Yeah, we definitely should have just whacked Saddam and his sons, blown shit up from the air, and gotten out within 30 days of capturing or killing Saddam.
of thousands perished,


Mostly killed by other Iraqis.
international terrorism strengthened and Iranian influence increased.
Yeah, shoulda kept Iraq and Iran at each other's throats, that's for certain.
On the other hand, Saddam was a git who deserved a spanking. What ya gonna do?
Death to Tyrants. Let the chips fall where they may after that's been accomplished. It's almost always better for everyone but the tyrants and their sycophants.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by Rum » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:40 am

The main 'evidence' Blaire provided was that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, ready and waiting to be used at 45 minutes notice. There were not.

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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by JimC » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:45 am

It is quite possible to view Saddam as a tyrant, and to analyse the war has achieving some useful results via very mixed motives, without the racial and ethnic slurs embodied by the term "wogs"

Unless you are Seth...
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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by Clinton Huxley » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:48 am

JimC wrote:It is quite possible to view Saddam as a tyrant, and to analyse the war has achieving some useful results via very mixed motives, without the racial and ethnic slurs embodied by the term "wogs"

Unless you are Seth...
Easier to be comfortable with visiting death and misery on millions if you dehumanise them first....
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Re: Do you agree with Hitchens' on the Iraq War?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:46 pm

Rum wrote:Much of the uncertainty about the wisdom of the invasion comes from the appearance that it was in fact retaliation for 9/11. It looked very much to many people like the USA lashing out in anger and revenge almost for the sake of it when there was no apparent link between Iraq and those who flew the planes that dreadful day. Here in the UK Blaire's enthusiastic pursuit of a 'dossier' of evidence to justify our participation was so unconvincing that one could not but suspect it was already all sewn up between him and Bush (as it surely was). He didn't even bring the issue to parliament until after he was committed and discussions in the Cabinet were somewhat limited. So there was mistrust about the wisdom or the necessity from the beginning.

As to the wisdom. War is rarely wise and who knows how the world would look if it had no happened. Rather different I suspect. It is good Saddam has gone. But the aftermath was awful and that was the responsibility of those who invaded without thinking too much beyond the end of their rifles.

Oh - and plus one to Jim's remark.
Well, the only way it can be seen as retaliation for 9/11 is if a person doesn't bother to look beneath surface reporting and talking points.

The disconnect that some folks have, I think, is in this idea of "apparent link" between Iraq and those that flew the planes on 9/11/01. That was never why Iraq was included within the war on terrorism. The war on terrorism is broader than mere retaliation for 9/11/01. In 2001, the war on terrorism was to be waged globally, and not only against a single terrorist organization, but also against any terrorist organizations of global reach, together with their state sponsors, and rogue nations that threaten global stability. The war on terrorism was not a myopic seek-and-destroy mission to apprehend criminals. It was exactly the opposite. The move was away from apprehension or destruction of Osama and Al Qaeta -- it was a global effort to combine military force with law enforcement, with intelligence apparatuses, and attack not only terrorist organizations, but all the allies, supporters and facilitators of terrorist organizations, plus rogue nations.

I have never understood the mantra of "Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11." Well, so what? It was a rogue nation, which did, in fact, support terrorists and terrorism, it threatened global stability, had designs and was thought to still have designs on catastrophic weapons, was not in compliance with international law after numerous attempts and resolutions, it had invaded its neighbors,and tried to commit genocide on its people. Libya, the so-called just war under Obama and the European allies, was fought on the pretext that Qaddafi MIGHT kill some civilians, and yet I can't seem to find a single person who opposed the Iraq War who also opposes the Libyan War. To me, I find that irreconcilable. I can't see how anyone can oppose the Iraq War, but support the Libyan War.

Ultimately, the Iraq War has produced a budding parliamentary democracy. All the constant naysaying from the opponents of the War -- things like Harry Reid declaring the war "Lost" - were of no help. People characterized, all along, the war as a colossal failure - it wasn't. It wasn't at any time. Yes, the loss of some 4500 American soldiers lives is 4500 too many for the United States, but in the grand scheme of things, Seth is right about this, to suggest that a war such as the Iraq War could be fought with such low casualties to one side is unprecedented in human history. There has hardly been a more successful war.

Rum, I think you are correct that the decision about war in Iraq was made very early on. They were going in. There is a very good reason for that which the Hitch alluded to when he was alive. He pointed out that the alternative would be that the allies would turn around and march out of the middle east. Let's take ourselves back to 2002, and imagine how it would have been reported and characterized if, a year after 9/11/01, the decision was made for the US and Britain to just pull out, or eve worse, to just sit tight, "do nothing" and maintain the awful sanctions and no-fly zone regimes, and the corrupt oil-for-food program. Either way would be painted as a loss for the allies, a victory for Al Qaeta and its supporters, and a tremendous sign of weakness on the part of the allies.

Moreover, geopolitically and strategically, with Iraq out of the hands of Hussein and with allied forces able to operate from bases in Iraq, in addition to Afghanistan, puts Iran within a pincer, and in fact totally surrounded. We can operate from Afghanistan or Iraq, and we can operate from Pakistan. The entire Iranian border is open to the US, and if you put yourself in Tehran, having to deal with that, you'd be far less secure in your position now, than a few years ago. And, they know they're "on the list." The Ayatollahs will be overthrown. That much is certain. It will take some more time, but they will go.

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