Allow Illegal Aliens to Vote?

[Coito ergo sum]

Only people who pay federal taxes should be allowed to vote, and citizenship shouldn't matter. Good bye Democratic Party :twisted:

The Democrats would just push a law through that provides federal funds to people to pay their federal taxes. Problem solved.

Only those citizens who own real property and pay property taxes should be permitted to vote.

Well, I disagree, and that is certainly not in keeping with the Constitution. I thought you were a strict constructionist.

Anyone who takes any government subsidy AT ALL (yes, including farmers and Social Security retirees) should be prohibited from voting, since there's an inherent bias towards supporting the taxing authority that provides the subsidy.

That doesn't make any sense, since Social Security is more of an insurance plan that you pay into via wages, and you are entitled to it. It's not a subsidy that is means tested, or based on need. You paid in, you get the money. It's not a tax.

And, anyone who takes a tax deduction, like on a home mortgage interest, is effectively getting a subsidy. So, the only persons who'd be voting in your twisted world would be those that own property free and clear.

I also rather favor Heinlein's notion that a term of government service, in the military or other approved function, confers citizenship on young people, but that the default is that if you're on the dole, you're a prole, and you don't get a voice in how the nation is run.

Welcome to Fantasy Disco, Seth.

[Svartalf]

CES, stop making sense, I get all confused when you go back to just being an ass.

[Coito ergo sum]

CES, stop making sense, I get all confused when you go back to just being an ass.

Why do you have to hurt me, Svartalf?

[Ian]

For Seth, a quote from Benjamin Franklin:

"Today a man owns a jackass worth 50 dollars and he is entitled to vote; but before the next election the jackass dies. The man in the mean time has become more experienced, his knowledge of the principles of government, and his acquaintance with mankind, are more extensive, and he is therefore better qualified to make a proper selection of rulers-but the jackass is dead and the man cannot vote. Now gentlemen, pray inform me, in whom is the right of suffrage? In the man or in the jackass?"

And what he meant was that it was absurd for the states to require a man to own property in order to have the right to vote -- which was typically the case.

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

Yeah but not the Grays ,they can't be trusted .

I say put dem all on the next flying saucer back to wherever they came from!

[Tyrannical]

I think the question of allowing illegals to vote is ridiculous. Illegals should be arrested and then deported, no exceptions.

[Coito ergo sum]

There should be exceptions, but otherwise, yes.

Exceptions would include, like, for example, a child brought here as a toddler, living here for 10 years, ought not be sent back to Mexico as a 13 year old, who has no memory of Mexico, no connection to Mexico, and may not even speak Spanish.

[Tyrannical]

There should be exceptions, but otherwise, yes.

Exceptions would include, like, for example, a child brought here as a toddler, living here for 10 years, ought not be sent back to Mexico as a 13 year old, who has no memory of Mexico, no connection to Mexico, and may not even speak Spanish.

Nope.
Back to Mexico along with mom & dad.

You see, a country's populace is allowed to make immigration rules. Breaking the rules for X years does not absolve you from having to follow the law.
Luckily we have the 13th amendment that allows the US to recoup costs of criminal activity by indentured servitude.

[Coito ergo sum]

Yes, of course the country is allowed to make immigration rules. However, those rules need not be hyper-rigid.

The child would normally not be held to have broken the rules, having not had an effective choice to comply. Hence, conceptually, the child has nothing to be absolved of, unless we would write rules that make children strictly liable for immigration offenses, even when they acted without the capacity to choose otherwise. That would be like convicting you of battery because I took your hand and slapped a stranger with it.

So, I would disagree with forcibly sending the child back to Mexico.

[Clinton Huxley]

Blimey, I agree with ces.

[Svartalf]

Is it wrong that I agree with Tyrannical?

I mean, giving special rights to kids brought in as toddlers, as kids to illegals, feels like a window for all kinds of traffics and fraud, just involving younger people.
Same way, I'd deny citizenship to kids born on the Soil of mothers illegally present there, if only to avoid any kind of anchor baby phenomenon.

[Seth]

Seth, people who collect retirement SS have paid for it and many do own real property.

Then they get to vote. But only if SS is reformed so that all contributions paid by an individual go into a private, non-government-controlled savings account and that's all you get when you retire. Those who take SS today are actually taking money from today's working class because SS is a giant Ponzi scheme. Therefore, those who get SS today are not living on their own dime, they are stealing money from others, and more of it because of inflation, than they themselves had to pay for retirees during their working lives, when SS just started, inflation was lower, and people on SS didn't live nearly as long.

[Jason]

New Haven Asks State to Allow Non-Citizens to Vote
New Haven's mayor wants illegal immigrants to be able vote in municipal elections.

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/loca ... 69598.html

I go farther - allow non-resident non-citizens to vote! Vote in any election anywhere around the world!

[Gallstones]

Seth, people who collect retirement SS have paid for it and many do own real property.

Then they get to vote. But only if SS is reformed so that all contributions paid by an individual go into a private, non-government-controlled savings account and that's all you get when you retire. Those who take SS today are actually taking money from today's working class because SS is a giant Ponzi scheme. Therefore, those who get SS today are not living on their own dime, they are stealing money from others, and more of it because of inflation, than they themselves had to pay for retirees during their working lives, when SS just started, inflation was lower, and people on SS didn't live nearly as long.

Not if they have been paying in for 30-40+ years.
They are collecting their own dimes and should be paid interest on those dimes as those dimes have been being used all that time.

SS has been compulsory, therefore people who have been having it deducted from their income and have reached the point of meeting the criteria to withdraw, should not be penalized in any way for doing that. SS retirement would not be a subsidy, it would be owed as an entitlement.

[Seth]

Only people who pay federal taxes should be allowed to vote, and citizenship shouldn't matter. Good bye Democratic Party :twisted:

The Democrats would just push a law through that provides federal funds to people to pay their federal taxes. Problem solved.

Only those citizens who own real property and pay property taxes should be permitted to vote.

Well, I disagree, and that is certainly not in keeping with the Constitution. I thought you were a strict constructionist.

Anyone who takes any government subsidy AT ALL (yes, including farmers and Social Security retirees) should be prohibited from voting, since there's an inherent bias towards supporting the taxing authority that provides the subsidy.

That doesn't make any sense, since Social Security is more of an insurance plan that you pay into via wages, and you are entitled to it. It's not a subsidy that is means tested, or based on need. You paid in, you get the money. It's not a tax.

Not really. You pay in and it goes directly to someone else, so it's a redistributionist tax levied on the PROMISE that when you retire, someone else will be taxed to support you. Problem is it's inherently unfair, particularly these days, because retirees are living longer and longer and they don't just get what they paid in, they get benefits for LIFE, which means they can get much MORE than they paid in, at someone else's expense. It's a government subsidy paid for by taxing current workers, no matter what you care to call it, and it's a Ponzi scheme that cannot be sustained in a world where the retirement class is larger than the working class.

And, anyone who takes a tax deduction, like on a home mortgage interest, is effectively getting a subsidy. So, the only persons who'd be voting in your twisted world would be those that own property free and clear.

Wrong. A tax deduction is simply taxes not paid, not a government subsidy. Your argument fails on the premise that all income generated by an individual belongs to the government, and that as a result that income which is not taxed is an income loss to the government and a "subsidy" to the individual. That's a hoary old Democrat/Progressive canard that has no basis in reality or economics.

I also rather favor Heinlein's notion that a term of government service, in the military or other approved function, confers citizenship on young people, but that the default is that if you're on the dole, you're a prole, and you don't get a voice in how the nation is run.

Welcome to Fantasy Disco, Seth.

Now, the rest of it is a bit hyperbolic, but I genuinely believe that if you're on the dole, you're a prole and shouldn't get a vote, and that government service (and not just military service, but other forms of government service as well) is the only way to obtain the franchise to vote. Why on earth would any society allow those who survive only on government largess to vote on whether or not they get more government largess? Alexander Tytler detailed the course of any society that allows the dependent class to become the majority of voters, and it's not a pretty future, it's inevitable societal suicide ending in economic collapse and anarchy...just like we're seeing in the EU, particularly Greece.

Denying people on the government dole the right to vote is just another encouragement for them to get off the dole and become a member of the productive class who (after government service...which they can do while they are on the dole, thus fulfilling the requirement) can obtain property and then vote on how society is operated. Nobody who is not a taxpayer should be allowed to vote on raising the taxes of taxpayers, particularly not those who depend on government redistribution of taxes for their survival.