The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:58 pm

Berthold wrote:Whenever there's a discussion about higher taxes for huge incomes and fortunes, the conservatives (we have a coalition government) say, "Capital is a shy animal; if you harrass it, it will go away."

However, during the long time when the USA had a limit tax rate of 90%, did Rockefeller, Ford et al. emigrate to Switzerland or the Cayman Islands? ;)
They also didn't actually pay the nominal 90% tax rate.

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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:02 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:Rich people secrete jobs like aphids secrete honeydew. Just ask Seth.
Flourishing industries create meaningful numbers of jobs.

So, the equation is simple, if the government wants to facilitate the creation of jobs, it ought to do what it can to facilitate the expansion of industries. By way of a general mission statement, that would mean determining which industries are potentially expandable, and then figuring out ways in which such industries can be helped so as to compete against international competition.

While it may not be the case that a modest tax increase will not significantly harm an industry, it is certainly the case that tax increases do not help an industry.

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Clinton Huxley
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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Clinton Huxley » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:31 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Clinton Huxley wrote:Rich people secrete jobs like aphids secrete honeydew. Just ask Seth.
Flourishing industries create meaningful numbers of jobs.

So, the equation is simple, if the government wants to facilitate the creation of jobs, it ought to do what it can to facilitate the expansion of industries. By way of a general mission statement, that would mean determining which industries are potentially expandable, and then figuring out ways in which such industries can be helped so as to compete against international competition.

While it may not be the case that a modest tax increase will not significantly harm an industry, it is certainly the case that tax increases do not help an industry.
Bah, you'll be advocating a centrally-planned socialist command economy next
"I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled"

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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:42 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Clinton Huxley wrote:Rich people secrete jobs like aphids secrete honeydew. Just ask Seth.
Flourishing industries create meaningful numbers of jobs.

So, the equation is simple, if the government wants to facilitate the creation of jobs, it ought to do what it can to facilitate the expansion of industries. By way of a general mission statement, that would mean determining which industries are potentially expandable, and then figuring out ways in which such industries can be helped so as to compete against international competition.

While it may not be the case that a modest tax increase will not significantly harm an industry, it is certainly the case that tax increases do not help an industry.
Bah, you'll be advocating a centrally-planned socialist command economy next
No. The central-planners are invariably lacking in sufficient knowledge or information to make and carry out a good plan.

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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Clinton Huxley » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:45 pm

@ CES
would mean determining which industries are potentially expandable,
How does this work? Who determines? Who knows? Governments picking winners? Might as well splurge it on the gee-gees.
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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by kiki5711 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:46 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
kiki5711 wrote:As I said before. The corporations DO create jobs. EXCEPT THEY ARE NOT IN USA. They are creating jobs in third world countries for cheap labor which makes them more money (then they find a way not to be taxed on it) and then have the GALL to bring the product back here for us to buy.
In many places the "cheap labor" is still paid far higher than what those other countries are used to. Take India, for example, and all of the telephone customer service companies that are set up over there. They welcome those jobs, and what is considered "cheap" here makes people wealthy there.

In many countries, like Brazil for example, a business can pay a high Brazilian wage and still be paying a very low American wage. That's because in Brazil about 1/2 the population makes less than $800 a month. So, offer them $1000 a months, and you'd have people beating a path to your door, and you'd be improving their wages by 25%.

We're not talking about giving the rest of the world jobs, while we end up homeless. How's that fair? The corps dont go there with the good will to help their poor. They go there for the purpose of making MORE MONEY FOR THEMSELVES.

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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Clinton Huxley » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:48 pm

Companies exist to provide value for their shareholders. That's it. If outsourcing improves the bottom line, that's what will be done. They ain't charities.
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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:51 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:@ CES
would mean determining which industries are potentially expandable,
How does this work? Who determines? Who knows? Governments picking winners? Might as well splurge it on the gee-gees.
There is a fundamental difference between a "planned economy" and rendering assistance in certain areas.

For example, looking at current regulations in the coal industry and determining that they are too onerous and/or can be reworked to do the same job for less expense to the coal companies can be determined. That is a different level of analysis than suggesting that bureaucrats have the capacity to determine what businesses will produce what products in X quantities at Y prices. The variables of that kind of "central planning" are monumentally more complex than looking at particular industries and seeing what can be done to reduce burdens.

The fact that we have laws and regulations governing businesses and accept the need for them does not necessitate the acceptance of central planning as a viable means of running an economy.

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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Clinton Huxley » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:54 pm

So, CES, you are basically advocating a "bonfire of regulations" - what pretty much every Govt says they will do and yet every Govt leaves office with there being more rules and laws than when they started.
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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Drewish » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:56 pm

It is a total lie that the wealthy "create the jobs." Jobs existed in villages when there was not a large discrepancy in wealth (well such distinctions arose, but were not required for jobs to exist.) The notion of worshiping the rich is a horrible perversion of the free market stance, that sees wealth as the virtue, rather than as something to be obtained through hard work and other virtues. I stand by the assertion that government micromanagement and over regulation (often at the behest of the wealthy) destroys jobs by creating artificial barriers to entry into the marketplace. This is the ideology of corporatism attempting to pass itself off as capitalism, and I'll have no part of it.
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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:00 pm

kiki5711 wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
kiki5711 wrote:As I said before. The corporations DO create jobs. EXCEPT THEY ARE NOT IN USA. They are creating jobs in third world countries for cheap labor which makes them more money (then they find a way not to be taxed on it) and then have the GALL to bring the product back here for us to buy.
In many places the "cheap labor" is still paid far higher than what those other countries are used to. Take India, for example, and all of the telephone customer service companies that are set up over there. They welcome those jobs, and what is considered "cheap" here makes people wealthy there.

In many countries, like Brazil for example, a business can pay a high Brazilian wage and still be paying a very low American wage. That's because in Brazil about 1/2 the population makes less than $800 a month. So, offer them $1000 a months, and you'd have people beating a path to your door, and you'd be improving their wages by 25%.

We're not talking about giving the rest of the world jobs, while we end up homeless. How's that fair? The corps dont go there with the good will to help their poor. They go there for the purpose of making MORE MONEY FOR THEMSELVES.
Well, of course they do. And, there isn't any way to stop them. If you tell an American company that they can't open an office in India to handle customer service, then they will just set up an Indian corporation, which they control, which will then contract with the American corporation for the services. The only way you'd stop that is to prohibit trade with India, or jack up huge tarriffs and taxes on trade with India. If your goal is to help the poor in the US, that wouldn't be the way to do it.

You realize, for example, that the reason things in Wal-Mart are so inexpensive is that they are made in China, Pakistan and India, etc, right? If they were made in the US, those toys you're buying for your young family members for Christmas would be far more expensive than they are now. How much do you think an iPad would cost if it was manufactured in the US? I can assure you it wouldn't be $700.

And, we're not talking about us ending up homeless. If you compare the standard of living now to 90% of the population of the rest of the world, you'd see it is an embarrassment of riches.

Here's how about 50% of south America lives, for example - Image Image

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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:05 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:So, CES, you are basically advocating a "bonfire of regulations" - what pretty much every Govt says they will do and yet every Govt leaves office with there being more rules and laws than when they started.
No. Not a bonfire. That metaphor implies I just want to get rid of them all indiscriminately.

The metaphor I would use would be "redlining." I would suggest a reasoned analysis.

Naturally, you're right, government is not particularly successful at doing that. That is the main reason I'm puzzled at your adamant adherence to the idea that the government go even further than that into areas that plainly exceed anyone's potential competence. You scoff at the potential to review and excise unnecessary and duplicative processes, but then advocate the same batch of incompetents create a central plan for the entire economy. Quite incongruous.

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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Clinton Huxley » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:12 pm

No, I'm not advocating anything, CES. Attempting to predict the future and pick winners is rarely very successful and is open to all kinds of snake oil sales techniques. The market will decide. As for regulations - in theory should be easy to relax them, in practice this never seems to happen. Its an easy thing for any Govt to promise.

The best Govts can do is to try not to get in the way, legislate for adequate worker protection and fund basic research and high standards of general education from tax revenue.

At the end of the day, no country has a right to its current standard of living.....as the West is going to very viciously find out.....
"I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled"

AND MERRY XMAS TO ONE AND All!

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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Svartalf » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:15 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Clinton Huxley wrote:Rich people secrete jobs like aphids secrete honeydew. Just ask Seth.
Flourishing industries create meaningful numbers of jobs.

So, the equation is simple, if the government wants to facilitate the creation of jobs, it ought to do what it can to facilitate the expansion of industries. By way of a general mission statement, that would mean determining which industries are potentially expandable, and then figuring out ways in which such industries can be helped so as to compete against international competition.

While it may not be the case that a modest tax increase will not significantly harm an industry, it is certainly the case that tax increases do not help an industry.
Bah, you'll be advocating a centrally-planned socialist command economy next
Better that than letting all those social traitors delocalize OUR jobs, just in the name of their Holy Bottom Line.
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Re: The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:21 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:No, I'm not advocating anything, CES. Attempting to predict the future and pick winners is rarely very successful and is open to all kinds of snake oil sales techniques. The market will decide. As for regulations - in theory should be easy to relax them, in practice this never seems to happen. Its an easy thing for any Govt to promise.
I agree. I can't say what the government will do. I can only say what I'd like it to do. It never seems to do what I'd like it to do.
Clinton Huxley wrote:
The best Govts can do is to try not to get in the way, legislate for adequate worker protection and fund basic research and high standards of general education from tax revenue.

At the end of the day, no country has a right to its current standard of living.....as the West is going to very viciously find out.....
Quite possibly.

I have often advocated ways in which the government could easily create many jobs of every kind. Just take the example of the military industry. The government, in my view, could very easily sponsor another industry. I can think of one that is being neglected, and where there is plenty of room to move, and which government sponsorship and involvement would very likely spawn other industries which people could then enter into. Space. Manned space flight and exploration of the solar system. Double or triple government funding for that along with defined, concrete goals, and have NASA brain-drain the world for major scientists to join us in getting off this rock. Private space industries would follow, as we are seeing the first budding flowers of Virgin Galactic and others.

That would be one way to create thousands upon thousands of new jobs, high tech jobs, industrial jobs, materials, engineering, design, computers, IT, robotics, fuels, energy, and all supporting industries like construction, food service, accounting, law, and on down the line.

The fact that we are not taking this opportunity, especially given the sheer size of the wasted "stimulus" package and the trillion dollar bailout of fucking criminal bankers is appalling.

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