Another Virginia Tech Shooting

[Seth]

Crime in DC has plummeted over the last ten years. Talk about Detroit instead.

Here's a quickie from Wikipedia:

Overall, violent crime in the District of Columbia has decreased 46% since 1995 and property crime has decreased 46.3% during the same period. However, violent crime is still more than three times the national average of 454.5 reported offenses per 100,000 people in 2008.

Of course Detroit is another good example, as is Chicago.

[Seth]

If even the thought of self defence enters your mind in peace time then there is either something seriously wrong with your society or something wrong with you.

If you fail to entertain the thought of self defence at all times, in peace or war, in any nation or society on earth, there is something dangerously wrong with you. Violent crime exists in every society on the face of the earth, and always has, and always will. Failing to take that into consideration means that you are delusional to the point of actually being insane because of a severe detachment from reality that endangers yourself and others, and calls for institutionalization.

[MrJonno]

If I find myself living somewhere that I start thinking about violent crime then its time to find somewhere else to live. Yes I could get murdered tomorrow or I could win the lottery (statistically these are pretty close in likelyhood) and while in a moment of weakness I do occassionally think of a lottery win its generally not very productive to do it for long

[Azathoth]

And what is the violent crime rate in the UK, as compared to the US? Not just the gun-crime rate, but the overall violent crime rate. It's safer everywhere in the US except perhaps Washington DC (where there is an almost total gun ban) than it is in the major cities of the UK, particularly places like London and Glasgow.

So you may be more likely to get into a brawl after the pub. A kicking is generally a lot less fatal that a bullet.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

Country Sources 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Most
recent
United States [56][57] 5.5 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.7 5.6 5.4 5.0 5.0
United Kingdom [7] 1.71 1.79 2.1 1.75 1.60 1.38 1.42 1.46 1.26 1.17 1.17

[Gawd]

Crime in DC has plummeted over the last ten years. Talk about Detroit instead.

Are you including crimes ordained by DC to be committed extra judicially? That would show a different picture.

[MrJonno]

And what is the violent crime rate in the UK, as compared to the US? Not just the gun-crime rate, but the overall violent crime rate. It's safer everywhere in the US except perhaps Washington DC (where there is an almost total gun ban) than it is in the major cities of the UK, particularly places like London and Glasgow.

So you may be more likely to get into a brawl after the pub. A kicking is generally a lot less fatal that a bullet.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

Country Sources 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Most
recent
United States [56][57] 5.5 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.7 5.6 5.4 5.0 5.0
United Kingdom [7] 1.71 1.79 2.1 1.75 1.60 1.38 1.42 1.46 1.26 1.17 1.17

Not even sure its possible to compare acturately any crime bar murder between countries as generally as the nature and reporting of the crime is similar. Even something like rape probably has large variations in reporting or even what is defined as consent

All the other crimes of violence simply don't have any 1 to 1o correlation between most nations

[Drewish]

If I find myself living somewhere that I start thinking about violent crime then its time to find somewhere else to live. Yes I could get murdered tomorrow or I could win the lottery (statistically these are pretty close in likelyhood) and while in a moment of weakness I do occassionally think of a lottery win its generally not very productive to do it for long

Maybe they're equal for you. It must be nice to have the financial means to avoid living in crime ridden slums. And let's not write laws that take into account what's best for the poor who aren't so lucky, but instead the ones that best serve those capable of leaving such places

And damn it Seth, why did you have to turn this into a flame war by trying to force a conclusion? It just shows that you're approach is to first make reality fit your narrative, and that's not doing much for my appraisal of your perspective.

[Seth]

If I find myself living somewhere that I start thinking about violent crime then its time to find somewhere else to live. Yes I could get murdered tomorrow or I could win the lottery (statistically these are pretty close in likelyhood) and while in a moment of weakness I do occassionally think of a lottery win its generally not very productive to do it for long

Not everyone is free to run away from potential danger. Most people have to stand up with courage and face it because it happens to them very quickly and unexpectedly, despite their false sense of security.

[Seth]

And what is the violent crime rate in the UK, as compared to the US? Not just the gun-crime rate, but the overall violent crime rate. It's safer everywhere in the US except perhaps Washington DC (where there is an almost total gun ban) than it is in the major cities of the UK, particularly places like London and Glasgow.

So you may be more likely to get into a brawl after the pub. A kicking is generally a lot less fatal that a bullet.

Not necessarily. Nor should anyone have to endure having their brain (or other organ) injured or permanently damaged by being kicked by some thug who does so only because he knows that his victim will almost certainly be unarmed. If you try to kick me in the head, I will probably shoot you, which would be lawful self defense. I will certainly threaten to do so, and it will be lawful for me to do so as well.

And then there's knife crime in the UK...

Around here we have a saying: "Trust an asshole to bring a knife to a gunfight."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

Country Sources 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Most
recent
United States [56][57] 5.5 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.7 5.6 5.4 5.0 5.0
United Kingdom [7] 1.71 1.79 2.1 1.75 1.60 1.38 1.42 1.46 1.26 1.17 1.17

[/quote]

Deceptive. Include ALL violent crime why don't you?

[Seth]

Crime in DC has plummeted over the last ten years. Talk about Detroit instead.

Are you including crimes ordained by DC to be committed extra judicially? That would show a different picture.

Er, all crimes are committed "extrajudicially." What, exactly, do you mean?

[Seth]

If I find myself living somewhere that I start thinking about violent crime then its time to find somewhere else to live. Yes I could get murdered tomorrow or I could win the lottery (statistically these are pretty close in likelyhood) and while in a moment of weakness I do occassionally think of a lottery win its generally not very productive to do it for long

Maybe they're equal for you. It must be nice to have the financial means to avoid living in crime ridden slums. And let's not write laws that take into account what's best for the poor who aren't so lucky, but instead the ones that best serve those capable of leaving such places

And damn it Seth, why did you have to turn this into a flame war by trying to force a conclusion? It just shows that you're approach is to first make reality fit your narrative, and that's not doing much for my appraisal of your perspective.

Just priming the pump. It's my duty as interlocutor and Grandmaster Zen Troll.

Doesn't take much to ignite a "flame war" (and this one isn't even close to ignition) on the subject of gun control between the sheeple of the UK and the gun-nuts of the US.

My actual position is that if you don't want to carry a gun, I'm fine with that, but don't complain if and when you get victimized by some thug. I'd go so far as to say that if you don't provide for your own self-defense, you ought not be allowed to make a criminal complaint if you get victimized, because you've been attempting to shuffle off your own personal responsibility for providing for your own defense onto the public and police officers, who have no obligation or duty to protect you in the first place.

And worse, much worse, by doing so you are facilitating oppressive government and tyranny.

[MrJonno]

If I find myself living somewhere that I start thinking about violent crime then its time to find somewhere else to live. Yes I could get murdered tomorrow or I could win the lottery (statistically these are pretty close in likelyhood) and while in a moment of weakness I do occassionally think of a lottery win its generally not very productive to do it for long

Maybe they're equal for you. It must be nice to have the financial means to avoid living in crime ridden slums. And let's not write laws that take into account what's best for the poor who aren't so lucky, but instead the ones that best serve those capable of leaving such places

And damn it Seth, why did you have to turn this into a flame war by trying to force a conclusion? It just shows that you're approach is to first make reality fit your narrative, and that's not doing much for my appraisal of your perspective.

I live in a poor working class part of Birmingham hardly crime free. The chances of my house being burgled while out at least once in my life are close to 100%, the chances of me being mugged for my wallet are fair however that chances of me being murdered as still comparible to winning the the lottery.

However the chances of me dying in a transport accident are scarily 1 in 229 (1 in 80 in the US)
http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/ ... rtpop.html

Reduce the chances of that by not driving and reduce the consequences for my family by having life insurance. (now thats real self defence)

[MrJonno]

My actual position is that if you don't want to carry a gun, I'm fine with that, but don't complain if and when you get victimized by some thug. I'd go so far as to say that if you don't provide for your own self-defense, you ought not be allowed to make a criminal complaint if you get victimized, because you've been attempting to shuffle off your own personal responsibility for providing for your own defense onto the public and police officers, who have no obligation or duty to protect you in the first place.

My position is I don't care if I have a gun or not (if somehow I got hold of it I would destroy it) I do however care that my neighbour or any thug doesnt get hold of one.
My personal responsibilty is ensuring I aid the police with any information that allows them to arrest/shoot anyone carrying a gun

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If even the thought of self defence enters your mind in peace time then there is either something seriously wrong with your society or something wrong with you.

Pardon me, but that's just fucking absurd.

[Drewish]

Nobody is talking about car deaths. That's a completely separate issue.