US Drone Shot Down Over Iran - US acting unlawfully?

[Coito ergo sum]

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/01/16-3

"As we speak, American over flights of Iranian soil are taking place, using pilotless drones and other, more sophisticated, capabilities. The violation of a sovereign nation's airspace is an act of war in and of itself."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 04x3920518

On what basis is the US violating Iranian air space? Is this illegal under international law?

[Atheist-Lite]

It is legal. I'm not gonna argue technicalities with the guy in the room holding his finger on the machine gun trigger.

[amused]

How high does "airspace" go? Satellites...

[Schneibster]

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/01/16-3

"As we speak, American over flights of Iranian soil are taking place, using pilotless drones and other, more sophisticated, capabilities. The violation of a sovereign nation's airspace is an act of war in and of itself."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 04x3920518

On what basis is the US violating Iranian air space? Is this illegal under international law?

Sounds like hysteria, which is typical for Commondreams and DU.

On Earth, the drone lost contact over Western Afghanistan, and kept flying straight until it was out of gas, which was over Iran.

[Coito ergo sum]

How high does "airspace" go? Satellites...

I'm not sure, but I know it goes as high as the air. And, drones fly in the air.

I'm pretty sure airplanes, unmanned and otherwise, entering the country of another by flying above its territory has long been considered a violation of international law and a recognized casus belli for the country being overflown to wage a lawful war against the country doing the overflights. (EDIT: this, of course, does not suggest that Iran will do anything of the kind, it only says what it says - that such overflights are violations of international law, and constitute casus belli. Whether a particular country actually decides to act on the casus belli is another matter. I doubt something so evident would need to be explained to most people).

Iran's military says it has shot down a US reconnaissance drone aircraft in eastern Iran, state TV reports. According to reports, Iranian authorities managed to seize the unmanned aircraft upon being downed, which they claim received "minimum damage."

http://rt.com/news/iran-us-drone-shot-0 ... ts/page-4/

Has the War with Iran Already Begun?
The evidence of an extensive Western covert program against Tehran, and Iranian retaliation, is now too obvious to ignore

http://www.nationaljournal.com/has-the- ... 204?page=1

Asked whether the United States, in cooperation with Israel, was now engaged in a covert war against Iran’s nuclear program that may include the Stuxnet virus, the blowing-up of facilities and the assassination or kidnapping of scientists, one recently retired U.S. official privy to up-to-date intelligence would not deny it.

[Schneibster]

I'm pretty sure airplanes, unmanned and otherwise, entering the country of another by flying above its territory has long been considered a violation of international law and a recognized casus belli for the country being overflown to wage a lawful war against the country doing the overflights.

Are you seriously suggesting Iran is gonna declare war on the US?


Really?

Really?

[Jason]

It is an invasion in the same sense that sending a USN ship into their national waters to carry out any military function would be, so yes.

How high does "airspace" go? Satellites...

By international law, the notion of a country's sovereign airspace corresponds with the maritime definition of territorial waters as being 12 nautical miles (22.2 km) out from a nation's coastline. Airspace not within any country's territorial limit is considered international, analogous to the "high seas" in maritime law. However, a country may, by international agreement, assume responsibility for controlling parts of international airspace, such as those over the oceans. For instance, the United States provides air traffic control services over a large part of the Pacific Ocean, even though the airspace is international.
There is no international agreement on the vertical extent of sovereign airspace (the boundary between outer space— which is not subject to national jurisdiction— and national airspace), with suggestions ranging from about 30 km (19 mi) (the extent of the highest aircraft and balloons) to about 160 km (99 mi) (the lowest extent of short-term stable orbits). The Fédération Aéronautique Internationale has established the Kármán line, at an altitude of 100 km (62 mi), as the boundary between the Earth's atmosphere and the outer space, while the United States considers anyone who has flown above 50 miles (80 km) to be an astronaut; indeed descending space shuttles have flown closer than 80 km (50 mi) over other nations, such as Canada, without requesting permission first.[1] Nonetheless both the Kármán line and the U.S. definition are merely working benchmarks, without any real legal authority over matters of national sovereignty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace

Even by the lowest suggested altitude the drone would have been invading deep into their airspace.

[Coito ergo sum]

Not much in the news in the last couple days about the legality or illegality of drone flights over non-consenting countries' territories.

Here is a blurb from 2005: http://nuclearno.com/text.asp?9648

The United Nations Charter states that all UN members must refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity of other states.

Dr. Hermidas Bavand, a professor of international law at Tehran University, said: "Unmanned planes or planes with a pilot that enter the airspace of a country violate international laws, and even commercial and passenger planes should enter the airspace of a country based on prior agreements."

Security expert Pike agreed: "I think Iran would certainly be justified regarding this as being a violation of their airspace and a violation of international law, but this would not be the first time that international law has been violated and it certainly won`t be the last."

Airspace violations are taken very seriously by countries whose airspace is violated. So seriously, that they are often on a hair-trigger... http://theaviationist.com/category/airspace-violations/

[Ian]

It's entirely possible that both sides think they're telling the truth: the idea that a drone lost contact or otherwise malfunctioned and that the Iranians thought they managed to bring it down on their own after it invaded their airspace don't have to be mutually exclusive. Or, maybe it really was violating Iranian airspace deliberately (something about May Day 1960 comes to mind). Or, there could be (and probably are) other significant details about the incident that nobody here is aware of.

[Schneibster]

It's entirely possible that both sides think they're telling the truth: the idea that a drone lost contact or otherwise malfunctioned and that the Iranians thought they managed to bring it down on their own after it invaded their airspace don't have to be mutually exclusive. Or, maybe it really was violating Iranian airspace deliberately (something about May Day 1960 comes to mind). Or, there could be (and probably are) other significant details about the incident that nobody here is aware of.

Sure; they might have shot a hole in a fuel tank or line or something with a rifle.

The mullahs may be pretty chickenshit, but it's pretty obvious by now and nobody's buying their act any more. They're not crazy enough to start a war over that. And there's no question they're grinding it for all the propaganda they can make out of it.

[tattuchu]

Flying spy planes over another country's sovereign air space is okay as long as it's us that's doing it Just like torture is perfectly okay as long as we're the ones doing it. In such a case, it's not really torture Silly other countries. Don't they know how these things work yet?

[Coito ergo sum]

It's entirely possible that both sides think they're telling the truth: the idea that a drone lost contact or otherwise malfunctioned and that the Iranians thought they managed to bring it down on their own after it invaded their airspace don't have to be mutually exclusive. Or, maybe it really was violating Iranian airspace deliberately (something about May Day 1960 comes to mind). Or, there could be (and probably are) other significant details about the incident that nobody here is aware of.

Very true. That is entirely possible.

[Seth]

This falls under the "who the fuck cares what Iran says, thinks or want?" They are a belligerent nation, sponsors of Islamic terrorism, a rogue nuclear state, and a danger to world peace and anything the US does to inhibit their belligerence, reveal their secret nuclear facilities and prepare to cut the head off that particular snake is fine with me, international law be damned.

Losing a drone or two is small potatoes compared with the intelligence value of overflying Iran, just as Gary Powers being shot down in his U2 over Soviet Russia was an acceptable loss in the Cold War.

There's plenty of people, and several nations, just champing at the bit for an excuse to bomb the crap out of Iran, the US and Israel being among them. I hope that the fuckwit-in-charge (can't be bothered to spell his name) sets one military food outside of Iran and gives us and the Israelis enough of a reason to turn his palace into molten glass.

We'll surveil whomever we determine is a military threat to us and if they don't like it, then they can go right ahead and declare war on us, and to hell with the UN and the International Court, neither of whom have any jurisdiction over us.

[Gawd]

9/11 looks more and more righteous.

[JimC]

This falls under the "who the fuck cares what Iran says, thinks or want?" They are a belligerent nation, sponsors of Islamic terrorism, a rogue nuclear state, and a danger to world peace and anything the US does to inhibit their belligerence, reveal their secret nuclear facilities and prepare to cut the head off that particular snake is fine with me, international law be damned.

Losing a drone or two is small potatoes compared with the intelligence value of overflying Iran, just as Gary Powers being shot down in his U2 over Soviet Russia was an acceptable loss in the Cold War.

There's plenty of people, and several nations, just champing at the bit for an excuse to bomb the crap out of Iran, the US and Israel being among them. I hope that the fuckwit-in-charge (can't be bothered to spell his name) sets one military food outside of Iran and gives us and the Israelis enough of a reason to turn his palace into molten glass.

We'll surveil whomever we determine is a military threat to us and if they don't like it, then they can go right ahead and declare war on us, and to hell with the UN and the International Court, neither of whom have any jurisdiction over us.

9/11 looks more and more righteous.

Excellent examples of why extremes are detestable, moronic and totally uncivilised...

You have both become caricatures of your respective political positions...