USA: Losing an Empire, yet to find a role...

[Pensioner]

we stuck a pig stick in the fuzzy wuzzy from 6 feet not 20000 fooking feet like the yanks do. Our Empire had class, just look at uniforms.

[Schneibster]

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...Keep in mind we never claimed any places detached from our mainland as wholly owned subsidiaries, like India. Let's start there...

Uh, Puerto Rico? Hawaii? Any Island covered in Birdshit?

Although what's with this 'detached from our mainland' bollocks anyway? Like it makes a difference. What's magically sacred about land joined to you as opposed to not joined to you, that makes it fine-and-dandy to send the cavalry in?

[Schneibster]

India?

You wanna compare PR to India? Or Hawaii?

OK.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

India?

You wanna compare PR to India? Or Hawaii?

OK.

They were all annexed

[Schneibster]

PR and Hawaii are islands. And they're not subcontinents; 9,000 to 16,000 sq km as opposed to three and a quarter million.

I don't think they were ever comparable in population either.

Also the statuses of PR and Hawaii are different.

No, you don't wanna compare those with India. Especially not since Hawaii voted to be the 50th state.

[Audley Strange]

Whereas most empires have traditionally been ruled overtly from the central ruling class of a territory, either monarchs or theocrats or politicians. That definition cannot be used in the case of the U.S. which is why many people will deny it has imperial ambitions. In that respect they are right. I don't think the American government ever had ambition to rule the globe from the centre, not even when they had competitor on the ideology market. Rather than invade with armies (though they have been fond of that.) They left it to "business interests" who bombarded the world in a shock and awe of media, fast food outlets and opportunities to turn themselves into copies of the States. An infection rather than an invasion, though I think the term unfair because I don't think their actions were considered to be actively detrimental, but it sought a corporate monoculture that everyone did or wanted to buy into. That I guess is what people consider "American Empire". Though the hundreds of bases globally does make the whole Pax Americana seem a bit off.

Problem is now that's unravelling, people are blaming the political sphere for not taking enough charge and of colluding with the business interests. Which they are quite right to do, they were. Problem is, while everything was rosy, the public generally were quite happy to mandate them to do so, even though there were enough warnings over decades for everyone to take some heed of.

Really I don't see it changing dramatically. Sate the liberals with some shiny things and they'll stop trying to mobilise the left wing. Same old Same old.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...Especially not since Hawaii voted to be the 50th state.

They never voted to become a territory, or a republic before that. Both the overthrow of the monarchy and the annexation to the USA were organised by the US military and a small group of (mostly white) Hawaiian business elite.

[Schneibster]

... and never mind the whole, three-orders-of-magnitude-bigger thing, eh?

We'll just sweep that under the carpet.

[Jason]

See? "Not an Empire "

Hmm just noticed this is in the I are serious forums.. Noam Chomsky.. yada.. yada.. I can't be arsed.

[Schneibster]

More fairly, I'll stipulate that the original overthrow of Queen Lili'uokalani was questionable, note that there were questionable tactics on both sides, and note as well that an official apology was tendered and accepted.

All we can do now is preserve as much information about their culture as we can, and we do. I have been to a national park where they do exactly that, south of the Kona Coast on the Big Island. You should know before you discuss Hawaii with me much that the Schneibsteress' parents came from opposite ends of the Big Island.

And I'd still say that India is part of an empire, being at least one continent or one sea away no matter how you sail there, whereas Hawaii is adjacent, and so is Puerto Rico.

[Schneibster]

See? "Not an Empire "

Hmm just noticed this is in the I are serious forums.. Noam Chomsky.. yada.. yada.. I can't be arsed.

Whadda ya wanna talk about him for?

[Pensioner]

Me 9th 12th lancers Ireland 1960


My grandfather 12th Lancers 1890 India.

We both was on the wrong side.

[Ian]

Whereas most empires have traditionally been ruled overtly from the central ruling class of a territory, either monarchs or theocrats or politicians. That definition cannot be used in the case of the U.S. which is why many people will deny it has imperial ambitions. In that respect they are right. I don't think the American government ever had ambition to rule the globe from the centre, not even when they had competitor on the ideology market. Rather than invade with armies (though they have been fond of that.) They left it to "business interests" who bombarded the world in a shock and awe of media, fast food outlets and opportunities to turn themselves into copies of the States. An infection rather than an invasion, though I think the term unfair because I don't think their actions were considered to be actively detrimental, but it sought a corporate monoculture that everyone did or wanted to buy into. That I guess is what people consider "American Empire". Though the hundreds of bases globally does make the whole Pax Americana seem a bit off.

Problem is now that's unravelling, people are blaming the political sphere for not taking enough charge and of colluding with the business interests. Which they are quite right to do, they were. Problem is, while everything was rosy, the public generally were quite happy to mandate them to do so, even though there were enough warnings over decades for everyone to take some heed of.

Really I don't see it changing dramatically. Sate the liberals with some shiny things and they'll stop trying to mobilise the left wing. Same old Same old.

But what is American culture, anyway? The US is a nation of immigrants, churned together over generations and coming out as its own thing - upon which the rest of the world "copies", as you put it.

The "hundreds of bases" quote always puts me off though. Not to say that the US doesn't maintain a solid capacity for global power projection - it does, but there are only a handful of major overseas bases worth discussing at once. To get to the "hundreds" figure, one needs to count up every far-flung sigint station and marine garrison inside various embassies, etc.

Anyway, I don't know when "everything was so rosy" - for ten years in between the Cold War and 9/11? Also, call me crazy but I don't see anything unravelling. I see little more than a hiccup, along the lines how the US felt about its place in the world in the 1970s. Some malaise, some resentment, some unappreciation, some regret, etc. But the idea that the US is in decline I quite honestly find silly. If nothing else, the US will continue to dominate most of the 21st Century because it's the least-fucked of everyone else. Key to this premise: the US is the only major power that will not experience a serious demographic crisis (other than the temporary retiring-baby-boomers squeeze) over the next couple generations. Most of Europe is already bracing for this. Russia and Japan will face it particularly hard. And China has looming problems than most people are barely even aware of; within another ten to twenty years at most, that country is going to be in very, very deep shit (I think I've written about this extensively elsewhere before, so I don't want to ramble on too much here. If anyone of the "China is the next superpower" mindset really wants to press for details, let me know). The US meanwhile has no real shortage of sub-retired workers, nor living space, nor resources (oil, you say? the oil age won't last but another couple decades), nor intellectual capital, nor advanced technology, nor attraction for immigrants, nor entrepreneurship, nor military power - most notably the power to dominate the global commons. Shipping is still as crucial to national dominance as it was in Admiral Mahan's day if not more so, and the US Navy rules every ocean in the world: "it's battle fleet is as strong as the next 13 navies combined, 11 of which belong to allies and partners" (a quote from Robert Gates). And as it has been true since the time of Themistocles: "he who controls the sea controls everything".

//End rambling train-of-thought.//

[Schneibster]

Me 9th 12th lancers Ireland 1960

My grandfather 12th Lancers 1890 India.

We both was on the wrong side.

Got some stories to tell will keep you in beer for a while yet, though, huh?