Lyin' Ass Bitch

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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:14 pm

charlou wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:I think Bachmann's opposition to it at that age is pandering to a certain sector of the voting public.
And needlessly risking the health and lives of a sector of the voting public with her incredibly negligent moral values attempting to override pragmatic ethics.
Well, there I make a distinction between advocacy of what she believes to be in the best interests of children and society at large, and actually imposing a risk.

Using a different example, say, legalization of drugs and alcohol. I am in favor of legalization of drugs, and lowering the drinking age dramatically. I am in favor of a beer and wine age of about 13 years old (under supervision of parents), and otherwise a drinking age of 18. Many people holding the contrary view could say that I am "needlessly risking the health and lives" of people who might abuse alcohol, and in particular children.

I hold the other view, though, of the more northern European philosophy where alcohol is not fetishized, and I think that overall it's better for society. I will give Bachmann the benefit of assuming that she is not in sense evil, and isn't purposefully trying to hurt people. I just think she's wrong.

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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:17 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:Sorry, but parents have been abrogating their responsibilities from the Garden on. (Caine really turned out well, didn't he?)
Well, of course. And, government has been abrogating and abusing its responsibilities and authority for time immemorial as well.

In the case of parental abrogation, it should be noted, one person's abrogation is another person's parenting. Spare the rod, spoil the child, as 'twere.

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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:19 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:Sorry, but parents have been abrogating their responsibilities from the Garden on. (Caine really turned out well, didn't he?)
Well, of course. And, government has been abrogating and abusing its responsibilities and authority for time immemorial as well.

In the case of parental abrogation, it should be noted, one person's abrogation is another person's parenting. Spare the rod, spoil the child, as 'twere.
Third option: "We have kids? How many?"
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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:22 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:Sorry, but parents have been abrogating their responsibilities from the Garden on. (Caine really turned out well, didn't he?)
Well, of course. And, government has been abrogating and abusing its responsibilities and authority for time immemorial as well.

In the case of parental abrogation, it should be noted, one person's abrogation is another person's parenting. Spare the rod, spoil the child, as 'twere.
Third option: "We have kids? How many?"
Like Keanu Reeves in Parenthood -- "they make you get a licence to have a dog. But, they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father." LOL

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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by Seth » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:41 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:I got vaccinated against polio. I didn't ask for it, I had no choice. Good thing, too.

Seth, are you an anti-vaccer?
Polio is a highly-contagious disease that has devastating effects on the victims. Like smallpox, typhoid and a small number of other pathogens, it's a public health risk because it's easily spread and has immediate devastating public health consequences. But there was a lot of resistance to polio vaccinations as well, with good reason.
A major concern about the oral polio vaccine (OPV) is its known ability to revert to a form that can achieve neurological infection and cause paralysis.[37] Clinical disease, including paralysis, caused by vaccine-derived poliovirus (VDPV) is indistinguishable from that caused by wild polioviruses.[38] This is believed to be a rare event, but outbreaks of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) have been reported, and tend to occur in areas of low coverage by OPV, presumably because the OPV is itself protective against the related outbreak strain.[39][40]
Doses of oral polio vaccine are added to sugar cubes for use in a 1967 vaccination campaign in Bonn, Germany

As the incidence of wild polio diminishes, nations transition from use of the oral vaccine back to the injected vaccine because the direct risk of iatrogenic polio (VAPP) due to OPV outweighs the indirect benefit of immunization via subclinical transmission of OPV. When IPV is used, reversion is not possible but there remains a small risk of clinical infection upon exposure to reverted OPV or wild polio virus. Following the widespread use of polio vaccines in the mid-1950s, the incidence of poliomyelitis declined rapidly in many industrialized countries. The use of OPV was discontinued in the United States in 2000 and in 2004 in the UK, but it continues to be used around the globe.[16][29]

The rate of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) varies by region but is generally about 1 case per 750,000 vaccine recipients.[41] VAPP is more likely to occur in adults than in children. In immunodeficient children, the risk of VAPP is almost 7,000 times higher, particularly for persons with B-lymphocyte disorders (e.g., agammaglobulinemia and hypogammaglobulinemia), which reduce the synthesis of protective antibodies.[38] The World Health Organization considers the benefits of vaccination to far outweigh the risk of vaccine derived polio. Outbreaks of vaccine derived polio have been stopped by multiple rounds of high-quality vaccination, in order to immunize the entire population.[42]

Outbreaks of VAPP occurred independently in Belarus (1965–66), Canada (1966–68), Egypt (1983–1993), Hispaniola (2000–2001), Philippines (2001), Madagascar (2001–2002),[43] and in Haiti (2002), where political strife and poverty have interfered with vaccination efforts.[44] In 2006 an outbreak of vaccine-derived poliovirus occurred in China.[45] Cases have been reported from Cambodia (2005–2006), Myanmar (2006–2007), Iran (1995, 2005–2007), Syria, Kuwait and Egypt.[46] Since 2005, The World Health Organization has been tracking vaccine-caused polio in northern Nigeria caused by a mutation in live oral polio vaccines.[47]
Public health vaccination programs are very controversial precisely because they balance the rights of the individual to be free of government interference in their health care and the potential for injury from the vaccine against the overall public health benefits in fighting a dangerous disease. Unfortunately, in such situations, the effects on the individual who is placed at risk by a vaccination program are discounted by authorities who are looking only at statistics in the overall sense, and who wish to achieve widespread positive results regardless of a small number of deaths or injuries.

This makes sense where the disease is devastating and immediate, and is highly contagious, like polio or smallpox. It makes much less sense, and is much less ethical when the association between the disease vector (HPV) and the disease it's supposed to prevent (cervical cancer) is neither absolutely known, there is a substantial time span between infection with the HPV and the onset of cancer, and the vaccine is not 100 percent effective (it appears to be only about 70 percent effective).

The number and type of adverse reactions reported by young girls taking the vaccine that may lead to life-long medical problems are not to be discounted either, since the chance of getting cervical cancer is very small in the first place (fewer than 10,000 cases were reported in 2008 in the US). Subjecting millions of young girls to vaccinations that may lead to permanent, life-long pain and disability, not to mention potential generational effects on their children, makes the vaccine all the less necessary as a public health mandate.

There is a time and place for mandatory vaccinations, but HPV and cervical cancer is not it. Smallpox, cholera, polio, measles, rubella and other highly-contagious childhood illnesses likely qualify, particularly where the disease is highly fatal and highly contagious. Cervical cancer simply is not a large enough or contagious risk to the general population to justifiably trigger a vaccination mandate.

Strong marketing advocating vaccination, certainly, but only when the advertising and advocacy FULLY discloses the known and potential risks, including life-long pain and debility, posed by the vaccine and along with a genuine disclosure of the ACTUAL RISK of getting cervical cancer even if one DOES get the HP virus, which is actually quite small. Only with informed consent is it ethical to give the vaccine to a child who cannot properly evaluate the risks for herself as an adult.
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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:42 pm

Sigh.
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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:39 pm

While I am in favor of vaccinations generally, I think that Seth's view is not without some merit to it. A mandatory vaccine is, at bottom, a medical procedure that one is subjected to without regard to consent. I mean, it's "the government says you have to let me stick you with this needle and inject this substance into you, and you have no say in the matter." It's not a trivial thing.

That said - polio. smallpox. Etc. If not everyone takes the vaccine, then like polio it can reconstitute itself. So, there is reason to make people do it.

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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by hadespussercats » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:51 am

Seth wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:Seth, the American Medical Association and the NIH both commented that the HPV vaccine does not cause brain damage. And the HPV vaccine is most effective if it's administered before possible exposure-- i.e.- BEFORE becoming sexually active.
The AMA and the NIH have been wrong before, and it's up to the parent to decide what's best for their child. And if their child is not sexually active, they don't need the vaccine at all, now do they?

If you want to say that by claiming otherwise Bachman has revealed herself to be prudent and informed, I don't know what else to say.
I didn't say that, I was merely refuting the notion that she was lying about the HPV vaccine, which is not perfectly safe.
x
If she wasn't lying about the vaccine, then she was willfully ignorant and passing her ignorance on to her potential constituents and the country at large, because a hearsay story happened to suit her political agenda (in this case, taking down rival Perry. Oh, and appealing to the values of her conservative base, but that should go without saying.)

As for whether or not a girl needs a vaccine, you seem to have missed my earlier point-- that even a girl who saved herself 'til her wedding night could catch the virus. Catching HPV has nothing to do with early sex or promiscuity.

Unless you were suggesting that nice girls shouldn't have sex even after they're married? Or that there should be more nuns?
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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by laklak » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:00 am

hadespussercats wrote: Unless you were suggesting that nice girls shouldn't have sex even after they're married? Or that there should be more nuns?
I think they are just called "wives".
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by hadespussercats » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:03 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:While I am in favor of vaccinations generally, I think that Seth's view is not without some merit to it. A mandatory vaccine is, at bottom, a medical procedure that one is subjected to without regard to consent. I mean, it's "the government says you have to let me stick you with this needle and inject this substance into you, and you have no say in the matter." It's not a trivial thing.

That said - polio. smallpox. Etc. If not everyone takes the vaccine, then like polio it can reconstitute itself. So, there is reason to make people do it.
Day after tomorrow Sprog's getting a whole new passal of vaccinations. Poor little guy isn't gonna have a say in it, one way or the other, either.
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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by hadespussercats » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:10 am

laklak wrote:
hadespussercats wrote: Unless you were suggesting that nice girls shouldn't have sex even after they're married? Or that there should be more nuns?
I think they are just called "wives".
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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by Schneibster » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:20 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Schneibster wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Svartalf wrote:
FBM wrote:I don't think the "bitch" part was the point. It was the "Lyin' ass" part, IMO. Not misogynistic, just anti-bullshit.
I think every part was justified. She's a professional liar, with brains inferior to that of any long eared equid (or she thinks with the rear end), and she's a nasty piece of work that deserves the colloquial comparison to female canids, it's the female canids who ought to protest against bachman being referred to as one of them.
I've addressed on other threads the issue of the constant labeling of all republicans as stupid. One thing you can't say about Bachmann is that she's stupid.
The reason people speak of her as stupid is not that she lies, it's that she tells dumbshit lies like she expects no one's gonna notice. The alternative is to decide that her opinion of most people is that they're all stupid and won't notice. Which is a deeply stupid thing to do, no matter how smart she is.
Coito ergo sum wrote:I think this kind of thing, and calling her a "liar," is unwarranted.
She tells stupid lies. :dunno:
It's silly to call her stupid, and it has become a tiresome talking point.
You're attempting to sweep the fact she tells stupid lies under the carpet.
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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:39 pm

Schneibster wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Schneibster wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Svartalf wrote: I think every part was justified. She's a professional liar, with brains inferior to that of any long eared equid (or she thinks with the rear end), and she's a nasty piece of work that deserves the colloquial comparison to female canids, it's the female canids who ought to protest against bachman being referred to as one of them.
I've addressed on other threads the issue of the constant labeling of all republicans as stupid. One thing you can't say about Bachmann is that she's stupid.
The reason people speak of her as stupid is not that she lies, it's that she tells dumbshit lies like she expects no one's gonna notice. The alternative is to decide that her opinion of most people is that they're all stupid and won't notice. Which is a deeply stupid thing to do, no matter how smart she is.
Coito ergo sum wrote:I think this kind of thing, and calling her a "liar," is unwarranted.
She tells stupid lies. :dunno:
It's silly to call her stupid, and it has become a tiresome talking point.
You're attempting to sweep the fact she tells stupid lies under the carpet.
No. I'm disputing the allegation that she is stupid, and I'm pointing out that the old "he/she is an idiot" refrain. That line is puerile and fatuous, and not fit for serious discussions.

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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by Seth » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:00 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
Seth wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:Seth, the American Medical Association and the NIH both commented that the HPV vaccine does not cause brain damage. And the HPV vaccine is most effective if it's administered before possible exposure-- i.e.- BEFORE becoming sexually active.
The AMA and the NIH have been wrong before, and it's up to the parent to decide what's best for their child. And if their child is not sexually active, they don't need the vaccine at all, now do they?

If you want to say that by claiming otherwise Bachman has revealed herself to be prudent and informed, I don't know what else to say.
I didn't say that, I was merely refuting the notion that she was lying about the HPV vaccine, which is not perfectly safe.
x
If she wasn't lying about the vaccine, then she was willfully ignorant and passing her ignorance on to her potential constituents and the country at large, because a hearsay story happened to suit her political agenda (in this case, taking down rival Perry. Oh, and appealing to the values of her conservative base, but that should go without saying.)

As for whether or not a girl needs a vaccine, you seem to have missed my earlier point-- that even a girl who saved herself 'til her wedding night could catch the virus. Catching HPV has nothing to do with early sex or promiscuity.

Unless you were suggesting that nice girls shouldn't have sex even after they're married? Or that there should be more nuns?
One might want to ask one's intended to take a test if that's of concern. It's still not the government's place to mandate a potentially deadly vaccination for EVERYONE (girls and boys) to try to prevent an unlikely cervical cancer in a few thousand women. Sorry, but the risk is simply not one that the government has any authority to place unwillingly on a child against the parent's consent.

As for Bachman, she's a politician. What more needs to be said about her motivations? Democrats are just as bad in every respect, and often worse. Just look at Obama, who ran on a platform of "hope and change" and has offered little hope and negative change. And as I pointed out, she's not "willfully ignorant," she has a different take on the facts, and disagrees (as do I) with the FDA, that the HPV vaccine is sufficiently safe and effective to warrant a mandatory vaccination campaign.
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Re: Lyin' Ass Bitch

Post by hadespussercats » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:24 am

Seth, where are you getting your info on numbers for cervical cancer and the connection between cc and the HPV vaccine? I'm curious, because You've made some assertions that were different from what I understand to be the case.

Listen, I don't think Democrats should get a pass for using uninformed scare tactics to influence voters-- but that is my sense of what Bachman did. If she had made a case against mandatory HPV vaccinations that was as articulate as yours I'd be less inclined to think she'd made a dumb move on national television (whether or not you think she's a smart lady, her HPV vaccination comments were a political gaffe-- her ratings amongst Republicans fell sharply in its wake.)

Maybe there's a case to be made that the vaccine isn't safe enough for widespread use-- though I do tend to trust the FDA more than some random internet source for that sort of deliberation. But passing on alarmist, unsubstantiated hearsay isn't the way to make that case.
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