Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:19 pm

JimC wrote:So, Seth, the "indolent classes" are everybody apart from the to 1%...
Nope. They are the bottom group who don't work and take government largesse.
And the income of the 99% may have been rising, but at or less than the inflation rate...
Not true, as the source (the Congressional Budget Office) Schneibster cited states. Did you read the highlighted quotes? The figures in Scheibester's graph are "real" after-tax income ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION.
The stats show the gap is getting wider and wider...
So what? That merely means that the top producers are doing a much better job creating wealth and are being rewarded accordingly, while everyone else benefits as well. The middle-class enjoyed a 40 percent improvement in their income as a result of the productivity of the top 1 percent.

Capitalism and free markets reward productivity and innovation, and the graph merely demonstrates that the amount one can make is almost unlimited, if one has the skill and drive to become a top producer. All confiscating wealth from the top producers does is to chill the motivation for everyone else to work to become a top producer and drive the economy down the toilet.
How long before sandinista-type ideas become attractive to desperate people?
Um, you're about 110 years late with that question. Marxism is always attractive to "desperate" people who want what doesn't belong to them. That doesn't make it anything but theft.

And the facts show that when the top one percent thrive, everyone below them on the economic scale thrives too.

Every example of Marxism that's ever exited shows the exact opposite trend. As the top producers are destroyed by Marxist jealousy and greed, everyone does worse and worse, until people begin to starve to death.
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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:21 pm

Schneibster wrote:
Seth wrote:
Schneibster wrote:And the worst lie of all is that most people don't like to work.

Libertardians don't like to work, and can't imagine anyone who does. That says everything about them.
Liar.
Nope.
Yup.
Seth wrote:nobody in America is prevented from becoming wealthy by anything other than their own inadequacies or bad luck
You repudiating that? Because you just said it. And it's a lie: it's not inadequacies. It's the half of the 1% that are sociopaths rigging the system so they get all the gravy.

Seth, you're transparent as glass.
And you're a liar.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by Schneibster » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:24 pm

Seth wrote:nobody in America is prevented from becoming wealthy by anything other than their own inadequacies or bad luck
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. -Daniel Patrick Moynihan
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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by JimC » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:12 pm

Seth wrote:

Not true, as the source (the Congressional Budget Office) Schneibster cited states. Did you read the highlighted quotes? The figures in Scheibester's graph are "real" after-tax income ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION.
OK, fair point.

But the growing gap is still unethical, unwise and unsustainable in the long run. Few would argue that there should be no income differential, but most of us are saying that the disparity is simply getting too big. You're in a small minority on this one...
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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:30 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

Not true, as the source (the Congressional Budget Office) Schneibster cited states. Did you read the highlighted quotes? The figures in Scheibester's graph are "real" after-tax income ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION.
OK, fair point.

But the growing gap is still unethical, unwise and unsustainable in the long run.
Why is it "unethical." There are no allegations that these people did anything other than use entrepreneurial skill to produce products and services that the public wants and is willing to pay for.

Why is it "unwise?" The existence of the top 1 percent (and there will ALWAYS be a top 1 percent you know...bell curve and all that) gives the bottom 99 percent hope that they too can succeed and improve their economic condition through hard work. And since it's the top producers who create jobs for the rest of us, it would be unwise to muzzle the kine that tread the grain or kill the goose that lays the golden egg, wouldn't it?

Why is it "unsustainable?" Wealth is essentially unlimited, and the fact that some very small number of ultra-rich people exist in no way disparages or interferes with the ability of anyone else who has the moxie to do so to build economic success for themselves. There are no legal or social boundaries to becoming wealthy, as Warren Buffett and Herman Cain, both self-made multi-millionaires, prove.
Few would argue that there should be no income differential, but most of us are saying that the disparity is simply getting too big. You're in a small minority on this one...
What's "too big?" And who gets to quantify what "too big" is, and why should THEY get to make that determination? Marxists? I think not.

The notion that wealth inequality is inherently wrong is a piece of Marxist class-warfare propaganda and nothing more. It's pandered about because Marxists need something to blame on the rich so that they can get support from the not-rich. But Marxists never, ever actually defend THEIR OWN social system, because they can't, they just complain about others and their wealth without providing any solution other than "take it from the rich." And ignorant people buy the propaganda because it takes no actual rational thought and Marxists are very careful never to mention what happens AFTER Marxism prevails.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by Schneibster » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:32 pm

Seth wrote:Why is it "unethical."
Because a hundred and fifty million people worked and a thousand got all the money. Duh.
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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:49 pm

Schneibster wrote:
Seth wrote:Why is it "unethical."
Because a hundred and fifty million people worked and a thousand got all the money. Duh.
Liar.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by Schneibster » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:54 pm

Seth wrote: :tantrum:
:fix:
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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:25 pm

Schneibster wrote:
Seth wrote: :tantrum:
:fix:
Liar.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by Schneibster » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:29 pm

Seth wrote:
Schneibster wrote:
Seth wrote: :tantrum:
:fix:
Liar.
Insult. I win.
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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by Seth » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:41 am

Schneibster wrote:
Seth wrote:
Schneibster wrote:
Seth wrote: :tantrum:
:fix:
Liar.
Insult. I win.
Liar.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by Robert_S » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:18 am

Are the Black Bloc really anarchists or are they agent provocateurs acting on behalf of giant corporations?
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by JimC » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:34 am

Robert_S wrote:Are the Black Bloc really anarchists or are they agent provocateurs acting on behalf of giant corporations?
Probably not, but I have contended for a while that those in power rub their hands with glee everytime a disorganised protest movement allows a small group of thrill-seeking thugs to derail protests into mindless violence. Back in '71, I was a marshal at the several large, peaceful protests in Melbourne, called Moratoria, that lead (or at least were a factor) to a change in government, and Australia pulling out of the Vietnam war. No violent crazies were tolerated.
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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by maiforpeace » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:14 am

Here's some interesting news...

So, OWS is a disorganized, unfocused bunch of riff-raff, eh? ;)

Lobbying Firm Memo To Advise Wall Street Clients On Occupy Movement (VIDEO)
First Posted: 11/18/11 08:58 PM ET Updated: 11/19/11 02:02 PM ET

WASHINGTON -- A lobbying firm has prepared a memo offering advice to its Wall Street clients to help them manage any political fallout from Occupy Wall Street, warning that Republicans may turn on big banks, at least in public, altering the political ground for years to come. It is one of the first clear signs that the movement may be starting to trouble the moneyed elite.

The memo, first reported by MSNBC's Chris Hayes, host of the show "Up with Chris Hayes," was written by the firm Clark, Lytle, Geduldig, Cranford and addressed to one of its Wall Street clients. It runs four pages long and is set to be sent on Thanksgiving.

The first two graphs of the memo, provided by MSNBC to The Huffington Post, express angst over the idea that the movement could mean "more than just short-term discomfort for Wall Street firms" and has "the potential to have very long-lasting political, policy and financial impacts on the companies in the center of the bullseye."

The paragraphs read in full:

Leading Democratic party strategists have begun to openly discuss the benefits of embracing the growing and increasingly organized Occupy Wall Street (OWS) movement to prevent Republican gains in Congress and the White House next year. We have seen this process of adopting extreme positions and movements to increase base voter turnout, including in the 2005-2006 immigration debate. This would mean more than just short-term discomfort for Wall Street firms. If vilifying the leading companies of this sector is allowed to become an unchallenged centerpiece of a coordinated Democratic campaign, it has the potential to have very long-lasting political, policy and financial impacts on the companies in the center of the bullseye.
It shouldn't be surprising that the Democratic party or even President Obama's re-election team would campaign against Wall Street in this cycle. However the bigger concern should be that Republicans will no longer defend Wall Street companies -- and might start running against them too.
The lobbying firm, a high-powered shop with an array of clients from across the political spectrum, declined to comment. On its website, the firm notes that it "combines sophisticated high-level strategic thinking with robust ground-level relationships established over decades with key members of Congress and their staff, Administration officials."

Joshua Stephens, who has participated in the occupy movement in New York City, says the memo worries might be misplaced or potentially obsolete. "The danger is not whether or not politicians will defend these institutions. My fear wouldn't be that," he said. "My fear would be that the politicians that come to their aid will be increasingly irrelevant...That's the real threat and that's where things are going."
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Re: Black Bloc Tactics Contaminating Occupy Oakland

Post by Warren Dew » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:19 am

Seth wrote:
The billionaires and megacorporations aren't a problem because they're preternaturally greedy, any more than people on welfare are preternaturally greedy. They're only a problem because the government has set things up to encourage excessive concentration of money.
How so?
High corporate tax rates in the U.S. encourage even U.S. based multinationals to keep profits overseas so they can't be returned to stockholders. Double taxation of dividends discourages corporations from returning profits to individual stockholders. Both of these encourage - nearly force - large corporations to retain their profits, increasing the concentration of wealth, even where it would make more objective sense, absent perverse tax incentives, to be paying dividends and thus relieving concentrations of wealth.
Interesting assertion. However HuffPo writer Bernard Condon points out that while corporations are alleged to be sitting on 3 trillion in cash, they are also buried in debt.
Who said anything about cash? I'm talking about profits and equity - which is the amount by which assets exceed liabilities, like debt. Debt has already been accounted for here.

Here's an example. Citigroup's equity is currently more than twice its market capitalization. If it could liquidate - which it can't because of regulatory rules - the stockholders would realize an immediate profit of over 100%. That kind of indicates that the money would be more productive in the hands of individual stockholders than it is in Citigroup's coffers. Unfortunately, due to the factors mentioned above, it's very difficult for Citigroup to return even a portion of that equity to stockholders.

Other examples of companies that have lots more equity than they can invest productively are Apple, Google, and Microsoft. Apple actually has zero debt.

And seriously, Huffington Post? They're practically a mouthpiece for Soros. No wonder they're obfuscating this issue in favor of billionaires.
The way to get them to spend this cash and employ people is to lower their tax burden and give them regulatory certainty for at least three to five years so that they know they won't be blindsided by politically-motivated tax increases and crippling (particularly environmental) regulations that will suddenly and unpredictably increase the cost of doing business...like Obamacare.
I certainly agree with regulatory stability and getting rid of Obamacare, but those don't have a lot to do with concentration of wealth: they're needed to help small businesses employ more people just as much as they're needed to help huge businesses employ more people.

My concerns on this topic are the huge businesses that have already passed through most of their growth curves. At some point large, stable corporations need a efficient mechanism to return capital to the investors so it can be reinvested in new growth areas. That's what we're currently missing.

The solutions are pretty simple, too. For example, make dividends tax deductible for the corporations that pay them and taxable as ordinary income for the recipients. That way corporations can repatriate overseas profits without a tax penalty, so long as they are paying them out to stockholders. The stockholders can then spend or reinvest the money, either of which helps create jobs.

The only problem is the big billionaire stockholders who are more interested in power and control than in money.
Seth wrote:The problem is, first, oil subsidies are a small fraction of entitlement spending, and cutting them won't have much of an effect on solving the budget deficit, and second, doing so raises the price of energy and fuel far beyond the cost of the subsidies and tax breaks, which costs consumers even more on a daily basis.
I agree with the first critique. Placard slogans don't qualify as solutions if they make no sense when you do the arithmetic.

I don't agree with the second. Anything that requires government subsidies to make business sense almost by definition makes no economic sense.

Me, I'd be happy to cut both oil subsidies and social spending.

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