sandinista wrote:JimC wrote:Sandinista seems to view them as impotent neo-liberals, whose (relatively) peaceful protests achieve nothing; the only worthwhile thing being, it seems, the tearing down of the capitalist state and replacing it with...
Close JimC. Instead of "tearing down the state"...whatever that would entail, I would be more impressed if the "movement" directed their protests against capitalism itself. I'm still not convinced that that is not happening. I've recently listened to a few interviews from people in the "movement" and they are claiming that it is, in fact, a movement against capitalism. If that is the case, I am all for it. I'm not expecting everyone to get together and start a violent overthrow of the corporate oligarchy, but I would expect the primary focus of the movement to be aimed against the capitalist system itself.
But your expectations are dashed because the Occupy movement isn't about dismantling capitalism, it's about FIXING capitalism. Most of the Occupy protesters understand that capitalism is the best economic system ever devised for creating and spreading wealth, but they are unhappy with, in particular, the taxpayer-funded bailouts of capitalist corporations that should, according to free-market capitalism, have been allowed to fail, but instead were bailed out at taxpayer expense. In that regard I completely agree with them. But what they are not proposing, except for the radical Marxist fringe, is to dissolve capitalism in favor of Marxism, it's simply to make capitalism "more fair." Unfortunately they don't really define what they mean by "more fair" or how they intend to achieve it without themselves committing economic suicide by destroying the very capitalist markets that they are invested in.
JimC wrote:We don't need a revolution
Yes, "we" do.
The delusional belief of Marxists everywhere. When will they learn....
JimC wrote:Greed and excess power has distorted the current system...
No it hasn't, not at all, that's an ideological view. Greed and excess power IS the capitalist system.
Marxist claptrap.
JimC wrote:I suppose it is remotely possible that there are a tiny group of true Marxists who think they have a chance to use the protests for their own political purposes. If there are, then they are living in a fantasy world; the whole "let's tear up society and rebuild" thing just ain't going to happen. Seth needn't fear it, and sandinista can only dream it...
The only fantasy world, the only utopian thinking is that the present system will last indefinitely. That is nothing but purely ideological thinking. That the present system will change need not be dreamed about or feared, it will happen. There is no doubt.
Delusional Marxist propaganda.
JimC wrote:What does worry me more is the likelihood of the movement being infested with the street anarchist thugs who are there purely for the thrill of violent and destructive behaviour, with no real interest in serious political change, Marxist or otherwise. They won't succeed in any serious way, but they will leave a trail of damage and injured people behind,
If any thugs leave a trail of damage and injured people behind it will be the police. I would never support violent behavior with no interest in political change. The vancouver riots come to mind.
The police are just doing what the rest of society is demanding they do: enforce the law. No protester needs to get hurt, all they have to do is obey the law and their free speech rights will be respected.
JimC wrote: I suppose sandinista will regard them as "the vanguard of the people" or some such twaddle, but adrenalin-junky thugs is more accurate...
Depends who they are and what is attacked.
Not really. Marxism is sedition and treason, and should be punished as sedition and treason.
JimC wrote:At heart, is a reformist movement, not a revolutionary movement. In that, sandinista and I are in complete agreement. However, he would prefer it otherwise; not me...
I haven't been convinced that that is the case. From conversations here and there, different sources, some interviews, I have heard from as many people that it is a revolutionary movement as a reformist movement. There seems to be a split.
Of course there's a split, between Marxists and their useful idiots.
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