Huge Explosion Tehran, TSHTF Bigtime Tonight?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I prefer eating Americans.

Oh, go on then, eat me!

[MiM]

Ideally, Israel should be disarmed of nukes, and Iran should be prevented from getting them.

Agreed.

Iran has every right to develop nukes. It may be better for YOU and ME if they don't get them. That's not the point. You have no right to prevent it.
This is where the US pays the price for their stupidity in supplying nukes to Israel.

Well, they have signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, as a non nuclear weapon state. Technically that explicitly forbids them from developing nukes. At least without withdrawing first (as North Korea did, in a de-facto way).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_No ... ion_Treaty

[mistermack]

Ideally, Israel should be disarmed of nukes, and Iran should be prevented from getting them.

Agreed.

Iran has every right to develop nukes. It may be better for YOU and ME if they don't get them. That's not the point. You have no right to prevent it.
This is where the US pays the price for their stupidity in supplying nukes to Israel.

Well, they have signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, as a non nuclear weapon state. Technically that explicitly forbids them from developing nukes. At least without withdrawing first (as North Korea did).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_No ... ion_Treaty

True, but the US would be similarly forbidden from arming Israel with nukes, but that didn't stop it.
So it doesn't affect the rights and wrongs of the argument. Iran is working on nukes in response to what the US has done in Israel.
The solution is still the same, remove Israeli nukes, and have independent verification.
Israel still has the backing of the US, so there is no reason on earth why they should have their own nukes.

[klr]

Ideally, Israel should be disarmed of nukes, and Iran should be prevented from getting them.

Agreed.

Iran has every right to develop nukes. It may be better for YOU and ME if they don't get them. That's not the point. You have no right to prevent it.
This is where the US pays the price for their stupidity in supplying nukes to Israel.

Well, they have signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, as a non nuclear weapon state. Technically that explicitly forbids them from developing nukes. At least without withdrawing first (as North Korea did).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_No ... ion_Treaty

True, but the US would be similarly forbidden from arming Israel with nukes, but that didn't stop it.
...

Really? Where's the credible evidence for this?

[MiM]

Ideally, Israel should be disarmed of nukes, and Iran should be prevented from getting them.

Agreed.

Iran has every right to develop nukes. It may be better for YOU and ME if they don't get them. That's not the point. You have no right to prevent it.
This is where the US pays the price for their stupidity in supplying nukes to Israel.

Well, they have signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, as a non nuclear weapon state. Technically that explicitly forbids them from developing nukes. At least without withdrawing first (as North Korea did).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_No ... ion_Treaty

True, but the US would be similarly forbidden from arming Israel with nukes, but that didn't stop it.
So it doesn't affect the rights and wrongs of the argument. Iran is working on nukes in response to what the US has done in Israel.
The solution is still the same, remove Israeli nukes, and have independent verification.
Israel still has the backing of the US, so there is no reason on earth why they should have their own nukes.

That I'd say is a rather simplistic view of a complicated situation (Even though I guess Iran will be happy to claim so). There are very complex security related relations within the Arabic countries and Iran has a border neighbour in the east that possesses nukes. There are many possible reasons Iran is striving for the bomb. Some of them might well be more important than Israel.

[mistermack]

Really? Where's the credible evidence for this?

The evidence is well hidden in state secrets. But it's also widely accepted, and hardly ever denied any more.
Demanding the evidence doesn't make the bombs disappear.
They are still there, waiting to go off.
.

[mistermack]

True, but the US would be similarly forbidden from arming Israel with nukes, but that didn't stop it.
So it doesn't affect the rights and wrongs of the argument. Iran is working on nukes in response to what the US has done in Israel.
The solution is still the same, remove Israeli nukes, and have independent verification.
Israel still has the backing of the US, so there is no reason on earth why they should have their own nukes.

That I'd say is a rather simplistic view of a complicated situation (Even though I guess Iran will be happy to claim so). There are very complex security related relations within the Arabic countries and Iran has a border neighbour in the east that possesses nukes. There are many possible reasons Iran is striving for the bomb. Some of them might well be more important than Israel.

Ok, it's simplistic. It's bound to be on a forum like this.
But I'm sure that a deal could be done with Iran, if Israeli nukes were to be verifiably removed.
Not that it's going to happen. But I'm just making the point that it's hypocritical to try to deny nukes to Iran, given the Israel picture.
.

[Gawd]

Really? Where's the credible evidence for this?

The evidence is well hidden in state secrets. But it's also widely accepted, and hardly ever denied any more.
Demanding the evidence doesn't make the bombs disappear.
They are still there, waiting to go off.
.

There was also that nuclear bomb that Israel tested off the coast of South Africa when South Africa was a White supremacist state and the top Jews from Israel were there for a vacation. No joking. You would think that Jews would actually look for different friends but alas they had more in common with apartheid South Africa than differences. Plus, Peres and the other Jews that actually control Israel look White.

[MiM]

Really? Where's the credible evidence for this?

The evidence is well hidden in state secrets. But it's also widely accepted, and hardly ever denied any more.
Demanding the evidence doesn't make the bombs disappear.
They are still there, waiting to go off.
.

There was also that nuclear bomb that Israel tested off the coast of South Africa when South Africa was a White supremacist state and the top Jews from Israel were there for a vacation. No joking. You would think that Jews would actually look for different friends but alas they had more in common with apartheid South Africa than differences. Plus, Peres and the other Jews that actually control Israel look White.

If someone doesn't know, Gawd is referring to the Vela incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_Incident. Highly controversial whether there ever was a test, and if there was, who was behind it (SA, Israel or both).

P.S. I don't claim an opinion either way here.

[klr]

Really? Where's the credible evidence for this?

The evidence is well hidden in state secrets. But it's also widely accepted, and hardly ever denied any more.
Demanding the evidence doesn't make the bombs disappear.
They are still there, waiting to go off.
.

There was also that nuclear bomb that Israel tested off the coast of South Africa when South Africa was a White supremacist state and the top Jews from Israel were there for a vacation. No joking. You would think that Jews would actually look for different friends but alas they had more in common with apartheid South Africa than differences. Plus, Peres and the other Jews that actually control Israel look White.

If someone doesn't know, Gawd is referring to the Vela incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_Incident. Highly controversial whether there ever was a test, and if there was, who was behind it (SA, Israel or both).

P.S. I don't claim an opinion either way here.

I knew of the Vela "test". But what I had highlighted in my post was a claim that the US administration was involved in supplying nuclear weapons technology to Israel. In response to mistermack, I'm still demanding evidence that US was involved at the same level that the UK and the French were. What Gawd thinks about the Israelis being in cahoots with the South Africans is neither here nor there.

[JimC]

klr wrote:

I knew of the Vela "test". But what I had highlighted in my post was a claim that the US administration was involved in supplying nuclear weapons technology to Israel. In response to mistermack, I'm still demanding evidence that US was involved at the same level that the UK and the French were. What Gawd thinks about the Israelis being in cahoots with the South Africans is neither here nor there.

Anyway, there is no way that Israel didn't have enough smart science and technology folk to do the job themselves quite comfortably...

[mistermack]

I knew of the Vela "test". But what I had highlighted in my post was a claim that the US administration was involved in supplying nuclear weapons technology to Israel. In response to mistermack, I'm still demanding evidence that US was involved at the same level that the UK and the French were. What Gawd thinks about the Israelis being in cahoots with the South Africans is neither here nor there.

You can demand all you like. It's a silly demand.
My opinion is based on the perfectly clear fact that Israel and the USA are joined at the hip, and Israel is the 51st state in reality. ( if that's the right number ).
Israel could not and would not exist without the USA, and the US government clearly regards Israel very differently to any other "foreign" country. It's inconceivable that Israel would have to go anywhere else for their nukes. You can believe the fiction you are fed if you like. If you believe that, you will believe anything.
.

[klr]

I knew of the Vela "test". But what I had highlighted in my post was a claim that the US administration was involved in supplying nuclear weapons technology to Israel. In response to mistermack, I'm still demanding evidence that US was involved at the same level that the UK and the French were. What Gawd thinks about the Israelis being in cahoots with the South Africans is neither here nor there.

You can demand all you like. It's a silly demand.

No it's not. If you're so damn sure of your position, it should be simplicity itself to point to some credible sources of evidence.

My opinion is based on the perfectly clear fact that Israel and the USA are joined at the hip, and Israel is the 51st state in reality. ( if that's the right number ).
Israel could not and would not exist without the USA, and the US government clearly regards Israel very differently to any other "foreign" country. It's inconceivable that Israel would have to go anywhere else for their nukes. You can believe the fiction you are fed if you like. If you believe that, you will believe anything.
.

This is rhetoric, not evidence. I believe in evidence and facts. The facts are that the French and the British (each for their own reasons) were the principal backers of the Israeli nuclear weapons program, and the USA wasn't in the frame.

[Gawd]

Klr, you are willfully naive if you think the USA has not given Israel missiles to launch the nukes with or supplied Israel with the nuclear material to replenish existing weapons. Nukes get old, Israel has built new ones from American materials or just got them "donated" from American "aid"

And just where did your "facts" come from?

[klr]

Klr, you are willfully naive if you think the USA has not given Israel missiles to launch the nukes with or supplied Israel with the nuclear material to replenish existing weapons. Nukes get old, Israel has built new ones from American materials or just got them "donated" from American "aid"

And just where did your "facts" come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

Before you scoff at wiki, look at the references. The involvement of the French is long since known - the USA wouldn't help the French, so the French went into partnership with the Israelis [/obviously simplified] The level of involvement of the British caused a considerable scandal when it came to light a few years ago, involving as it did a Norwegian intermediary as a front.

If you know anything about the history of Israel, then you aught to know full well that the US wouldn't even sell the most mundane conventional weapons systems to Israel at first. It wasn't until the 1973 Yom Kippur war that the Israelis were armed mostly with US weapons. Now, if the US would sell the Israelis even a single surplus WW II fighter at first (planes that they were practically giving away to other countries), what are the chances that it would bring them into the nuclear club?

So then, where's the evidence for deep US involvement in Israeli nuclear weapons? Or that the Israeli missiles are really US missiles, or Israeli missiles that are hugely dependent on highly sensitive US technology? The evidence Gawd, the evidence.