Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:28 am

JimC wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Seth wrote:
Schneibster wrote:Is Seth doing the "commies are teh evul bekuz they are teh athiest" bit again?
"Again?" Sorry, not something I've ever said. I'm merely pointing out that Communists, who are evil, are also Atheists, and that their atheism is a direct cause of the deaths of 100 million people at their hands.
Bullshit.
Absolutely.

It may well be true that their absolutist vision of politics was involved, but this does not correlete with atheism per se...
Seeth falls back on trolling when he's got nothing. One more in the "win" column for the good guys when he does that shit. (Gonna need a bigger win column PDQ.)
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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:12 pm

vjohn82 wrote:Socialism is based on theft? Socialism, by definition, holds that theft is non-existent. No such thing as oppression under a secular socialist agenda; working to remove oppression is the goal of all. Individuals can learn to thrive under socialism for the good of the collective.
That socialists deny stealing the labor of others does not mean that socialism does not do so.
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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:13 pm

Schneibster wrote:Occupy isn't against capitalism.
"Occupy" is a bunch of useful idiots being manipulated by Marxists.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:18 pm

Schneibster wrote:I got 30 seconds in where he claimed Occupy is against capitalism and stopped paying attention, like I always do when someone I think is trolling lies.

They're not socialists. They're not against capitalism. They don't want to destroy the banks.

They just want the ultra-rich, who have had the bulk of the gravy since 1979, to pay their share.
The problem, of course, is that the "ultra-rich" are already paying far more than "their share" and have been since the progressive income tax was instituted by Woodrow Wilson and the Progressives in 1912.

At the moment, the "ultra-rich" and everyone below them down to the top 50 percent of taxpayers pay 97 percent of all taxes. The top one percent earn only 19 percent of the wealth but pay 37 percent of the taxes. The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the taxes. Meanwhile the bottom 50 percent pay 3 percent and earn only 13 percent of the income.

So, you, like Occupy and most socialists, Marxists and Progressives, are utterly full of shit about who isn't paying their "fair share."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Drewish » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:19 pm

Interesting. Where are you getting those statistics from Seth?
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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:27 pm

Schneibster wrote:
andrewclunn wrote:But we're talking about what the movement is about
We are. And it's not about communism, nor is it about destroying capitalism.
Wrong and wrong. The idealistic, if rather ill-informed and uneducated young people who are ranting against "corporate greed" are the proletarian "useful idiot" unwitting foot-soldiers of hard-core Marxists who set up the whole movement and are driving it towards violent revolutionary confrontation in an attempt to both forward communism and destroy capitalism.

That the useful idiots don't see that they are being used, or are denying that the dupes at the park are being used, is just proof of how usefully idiotic they actually are.
We'll start with the truth.


Useful idiots wouldn't know the truth if it hit them in the head with a gas cannister. Oh, wait...
Otherwise there's no point in talking.


Not much point in talking to useful idiots who think that they are being original in their complaints and fail to recognize that they are simpletons and dupes for hard-line Marxist revolutionary agitators.
Do you need links to articles that show it's not about communism, it's not about smashing anything, and it's not about destroying capitalism, or are we going to be able to move on from this point?
Link to whatever you like, the fact is that what useful idiots think it's about is not what it's about, as we are seeing in Oakland and elsewhere, where the hard-core Marxist agitators are beginning the inevitable and long-planned violent attempt at revolutionary overthrow of capitalism in the US.

Fortunately, the vast majority of citizens of the US know what's going on and soundly reject Marxist rhetoric and violence and will do whatever is necessary to put down the insurrection.

Hopefully, the useful idiots will eventually see the light and will walk away from their Marxist manipulators, and the whole thing will fall apart, as it should, because it's based on the Marxist zero-sum fallacy that the only way one person gets rich is by taking something from someone else, making them poor.

This is simply an outright lie concocted by Marx and other Marxists to justify the class warfare and violent overthrow of capitalism that Marx et al wanted, and still want.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:28 pm

andrewclunn wrote:Interesting. Where are you getting those statistics from Seth?
The immediate source is here.

The data comes from the U.S. Department of Revenue, and anyone who cares to do the digging can find it.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:35 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Schneibster wrote:They just want the ultra-rich, who have had the bulk of the gravy since 1979, to pay their share.
Ridiculous. If they only wanted the ultra-rich to pay their share, they wouldn't be talking about the 1%, who are merely rich; they would be figuring out how to tax the unrealized capital gains of the billionaires like Warren Buffett so he'd end up paying more than the 3% lifetime income tax rate that he has paid so far.
I'd rather that they figure out how to make the bottom fifty percent of taxpayers pay more than 3 percent of the taxes while consuming the lion's share of entitlement benefits. That would put more money into the treasury than stripping Buffet and his like of their wealth. It would also be more "fair."

And if capital gains are "unrealized" that means that there actually is no "gain" to be taxed and you're trying to tax an imaginary profit because you jealously and greedily think that Buffet and his like simply have too much money, and that's not fair. You want nothing more than to tax existing capital, whether it's used to generate profit or not, which means that all you want to do is steal what doesn't belong to you and what you did not earn.

The problem with that policy is that eventually they come around an start seizing YOUR "excess wealth" as bracket creep moves the definition of "ultra-rich" down the scale as the economy and society crumbles under socialist theft.

That's what happened in the Soviet Union.

Socialism always ends up eating itself.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:40 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Schneibster wrote:They just want the ultra-rich, who have had the bulk of the gravy since 1979, to pay their share.
Ridiculous. If they only wanted the ultra-rich to pay their share, they wouldn't be talking about the 1%, who are merely rich; they would be figuring out how to tax the unrealized capital gains of the billionaires like Warren Buffett so he'd end up paying more than the 3% lifetime income tax rate that he has paid so far.
Guys like Buffett and Soros advocate and want to pay their higher share of tax...unlike, say the Koch Brothers.
Not true. If they wanted to pay more taxes, NOTHING PREVENTS THEM FROM DOING SO. They can write a check to the US Treasury for ANY AMOUNT they think they owe, any time they want, and the Treasury will gladly accept it (no, it's not a tax deductible donation either). But they don't. Why is that?

It's because Buffet, and particularly Soros want OTHER PEOPLE to be forced to pay higher taxes, which is the epitome of hypocrisy. Soros, at least, wants to remain in the top 0.01 percent because he wants to run the world according to his own megalomaniacal vision. He's a wannabee tyrant and despot who need to be stopped before he succeeds in destroying our economy like he's destroyed at least four other national economies.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:46 pm

Schneibster wrote:
andrewclunn wrote:
Schneibster wrote: Let me ask this: do you know the difference between socialism and communism?
Yes of course, under communism the government (and supposedly by extension the people) own the means of productions. Where socialism deals with the redistribution of wealth. So when the government nationalizes or heavily regulates an industry it's drawing from communist tendencies. Where (by contrast) it would be possible to have a free market socialist society where all goods and services are provided by the market place, but the government has a progressive tax code that redistributes a set amount of wealth on a recurring basis.
No, but a lot damn closer than most folks so more than half credit.

Socializing means taking something over as the proper business of government. Socialists are variously more or less radical depending on how much and precisely what they think the government should take the management of. My father, for example, who is a life-long devoted socialist believes that banking, insurance, production of work clothing and tools, education, practice of medicine, hospitalization, and production of all medical gear and medicines, production and maintenance of basic housing, provision, expansion, and maintenance of transportation, and production and distribution of food should all be socialized; I am more moderate. At minimum, anyone you're going to call a socialist in the real world in the US is going to be in favor of socialized medicine, and I am; in fact, I'm also in favor of socialization of hospitalization and production of some medical gear and some medicines. I am also in favor of socialized education. As for the rest, I am in favor of heavy, heavy regulation.

Now, when we start talking about automobiles, I'm in favor of a private industry. And I don't think the clothes you get from the socialized sources should be competing with those you get from private sources; basic coveralls, boots, underwear and what you gotta have to stay warm depending on local climate. Private clothes should exist, and should not suffer government competition; but if a private company chooses to produce basic socks, that's their problem. And if they're successful, that should be rewarded before it gets socialized.

I do not expect to see what I believe in in my lifetime; but that's OK, I'll be happy if we get most of the work done just on medicine provision and hospitalization, and get some regulation in place over the more egregious banking and insurance problems we've been having. Obama has made some strides on that, but he also has the economy to try to stabilize, and the Republican Teagagger Party is trying to lynch him because he's black and punish the rest of us for voting for him, by opposing anything that might create jobs.

Communism, OTOH, includes first of all very much heavier use of socialization than even my father is comfortable with. No private sector is permitted at all, and the community has all power over the individual; think COMMUNIty, COMMUNIsm. The basic unit of organization is the commune. Individualism is criminalized. We saw this in the Soviet Union, and they could not compete. Communism is over; it has lessons for us to learn, but it is not a viable form of government, to say nothing of the human misery and environmental damage it did.

So we see that socialism is an economic strategy, whereas communism is a total system of organization of a society.

Now, I'm not a communist; nor am I a scholar of communism. And some communists would argue with my characterization; there are less obtrusive forms of communism. But as it has been practiced by the collectivists of the 20th century, that's what communism looked like, and it didn't work out well. We'll see if there's anyone like that here who'd like to join the conversation before long, I'm sure.

So that might help you understand me some. And now you know more about communism and socialism than you did.
No, we just know what you think about what you think Socialism and Communism are about. You haven't educated anyone about what Socialism and Communism actually are, or how they actually fail to work as planned, every single time it's attempted, because both fail to take into account some basic factors like ordinary human behavior and fundamental economics.

F. A. Hayek clearly illuminates in "The Road to Serfdom" why neither socialist nor communist central planning and central government control of the economy ever works or ever can work.

If YOU want to actually learn something other than Marxist propaganda about socialism and communism, you might want to read it.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Warren Dew » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:48 pm

Seth wrote:And if capital gains are "unrealized" that means that there actually is no "gain" to be taxed and you're trying to tax an imaginary profit because you jealously and greedily think that Buffet and his like simply have too much money, and that's not fair. You want nothing more than to tax existing capital, whether it's used to generate profit or not, which means that all you want to do is steal what doesn't belong to you and what you did not earn.
I'd be happy if it were taxed when it was realized. The problem is that Buffett has already set things up so it will never get taxed, even when he dies.

Meanwhile, the hardworking folks in the 1% and 10% do get taxed. That's what's not fair.

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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:49 pm

Schneibster wrote:
sandinista wrote:
Schneibster wrote:Occupy isn't against capitalism.
which is why it'll never achieve anything.
Bullshit. It's already achieved something.
Yeah, it's pissed off the ordinary working stiffs and average citizens, who are rejecting the message, and the violence, and are marginalizing the movement as we speak.
We're now talking about the income gains of the top 1% since 1979 and the people who will be voting next November are listening closely.
Marxist Zero-sum Fallacy. You're right though, people are listening, and are rejecting the lies and Marxist propaganda that's spewing from the ill-informed, uneducated rabble that are infesting our public parks, and who will soon be driven out by the police because the people are sick and tired of the stink of hypocrisy and the stench of unwashed radicalism.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Drewish » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:54 pm

Seth, I appreciate that you seem to be defending capitalism, but Warren Dew and myself have already made many points similar to yours in response to the same posts you're quoting on the very last page. I'm getting the sense (in the less than 24 hours since I've come back to this forum) that it's often you against the world, but there's no need to effectively shout over other people when they're on your side :)
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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:59 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Seth wrote:And if capital gains are "unrealized" that means that there actually is no "gain" to be taxed and you're trying to tax an imaginary profit because you jealously and greedily think that Buffet and his like simply have too much money, and that's not fair. You want nothing more than to tax existing capital, whether it's used to generate profit or not, which means that all you want to do is steal what doesn't belong to you and what you did not earn.
I'd be happy if it were taxed when it was realized. The problem is that Buffett has already set things up so it will never get taxed, even when he dies.
Really? How did he manage that, exactly? And how would the fact, if true, which it's likely not, that one wealthy person takes advantage of the existing tax law to reduce his tax liability militate for an entire "corporate greed" movement that's attempting to deconstruct capitalism?

One might to note that Buffet, and almost all the other "ultra-rich" don't have a giant Scrooge McDuck vault that their money is kept in where they go "money-diving" every week. Their money is invested in the economy, creating products and jobs. Buffet in particular has created hundreds of thousands of jobs just within his own companies, not to mention all the millions of jobs his companies support in industry that services his business empire.

Deconstruct Buffet and you deconstruct millions of jobs along with him. Is that what you really want?

Keep in mind that the "ultra-rich" do not NEED to invest or earn income at all. They have more money than one person could possibly spend in a lifetime. If they wanted to, they could shut down every company they own, fire every worker, sell off all the assets and PUT THEIR MONEY IN A GIANT VAULT AND DIVE IN IT WEEKLY if they want. At which point the economy would REALLY tank, and they would still live high on the hog for the rest of their, and their grandchildren's lives. Being wealthy in a depression is a wonderful thing. Everything's cheap as dirt.

If the "ultra-rich" of this country were 1/10th as "greedy" as the morons in the OWS movement say they are, they would simply withdraw all their capital from the markets, close down their companies and live off their capital and watch the entire world fall to pieces. But they don't. They keep running their companies and they keep producing products the public wants (which is how they earned their wealth to begin with) and they keep propping up the economy and providing jobs for people to work at.

And the idiots of OWS want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

What a bunch of rubes.

Meanwhile, the hardworking folks in the 1% and 10% do get taxed. That's what's not fair.
Which 1 and 10 percent? The bottom or the top?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Occupy Movement Links To Communism?

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:00 pm

andrewclunn wrote:Seth, I appreciate that you seem to be defending capitalism, but Warren Dew and myself have already made many points similar to yours in response to the same posts you're quoting on the very last page. I'm getting the sense (in the less than 24 hours since I've come back to this forum) that it's often you against the world, but there's no need to effectively shout over other people when they're on your side :)
I'm just catching up and having my say. That's how I roll. Carry on.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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