Obama Tackles College Loan Relief

[FBM]

Making higher education available to the poor is the way to end poverty, not by supporting them with free room and board. Let them get an education and become self-supporting. Win-win. Them and the taxpayers.

[MrJonno]

Making higher education available to the poor is the way to end poverty, not by supporting them with free room and board. Let them get an education and become self-supporting. Win-win. Them and the taxpayers.

I think the point these days isnt a degree = a good job but

not having a degree = no job

[Coito ergo sum]

Germany. Free university.

Free to the one receiving the benefit of the education. Many of those students - most probably - could afford it - and some of that money could be used to feed the hungry, and house the homeless.

Those students' parents, if not the students themselves, pay the same taxes as everyone else. Not really free to anyone, strictly speaking, but available to members of every economic class. The hungry and homeless have equal access, at least, whether they avail themselves of the opportunity or not.

The hungry and homeless need food and homes before they need college.

And, every economic class already has access here. That's what the loans are for. They're federally guaranteed, so people with shit credit still get them.

[Coito ergo sum]

Making higher education available to the poor is the way to end poverty, not by supporting them with free room and board. Let them get an education and become self-supporting. Win-win. Them and the taxpayers.

I think the point these days isnt a degree = a good job but

not having a degree = no job

That's not consistent with reality. Plenty of people have jobs without degrees.

[FBM]

Define "plenty". If by "plenty" you mean "some," OK. But if you mean that most non-degreed people are fully self-supporting, I'd have to doubt that.

[Coito ergo sum]

Define "plenty". If by "plenty" you mean "some," OK. But if you mean that most non-degreed people are fully self-supporting, I'd have to doubt that.

Thirty-seven percent of employed women have a bachelor's degree or higher, compared to 35 percent of men, according to 2010 census figures. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/census-2 ... d=13461125

I.e. 2/3 of working Americans do not have a bachelor's degree. It's clearly not necessary to be employed.

[FBM]

"employed" =/= "self-supporting." Those employed and without a degree (unskilled, minimum wage earners, mostly) receive the lion's share of public assistance compared to those with a degree, I'd expect. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. If they had a degree, they'd be more likely to manage without public funds.

[Coito ergo sum]

"employed" =/= "self-supporting." Those employed and without a degree (unskilled, minimum wage earners, mostly ) receive the lion's share of public assistance compared to those with a degree, I'd expect. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. If they had a degree, they'd be more likely to manage without public funds.

[citation needed re average wage of non-degreed persons] - I do not believe it is established, or likely, that most non-degreed people are "unskilled." Huge numbers of skilled labor make very nice salaries - example: auto workers.

Sure, I am willing to bet that most public assistance is received by people without degrees, but, public assistance is not received by most or even a huge minority of people in general.

As for "more likely to manage without public funds" - I don't know of that's the case. If everyone had a degree, there still wouldn't be "degreed-type-work" for everyone to do.

Only 1/3 of working people actually have bachelors degrees. That doesn't mean that if they all had bachelors degrees they'd have better jobs.

[Azathoth]

Rather than capping loans capping tuition fees is the best solution. The university you attend then becomes about your ability rather than your bank balance

[FBM]

@ CES: It's much simpler than that. What's the average income ceiling of a person with a high school diploma or less compared to that of someone with an undergrad or higher? Exceptions like Bill Gates and auto workers aside.

[Coito ergo sum]

Rather than capping loans capping tuition fees is the best solution. The university you attend then becomes about your ability rather than your bank balance

It's not about bank balance now, what with all the grants and federally guaranteed loans available.

[charlou]

But everybody has a RIGHT to go to college! And nobody should have to pay for it! It's not fair that some people go to Harvard and some people go to Texas A&M! If I want to study Early Minoan Art History you have to pay for it!

Yes, there's an element of frivolity in higher education that its probably unfair to expect taxpayers to subsidise. What is frivolous and what is not is open to debate, of course.

Also, when a person achieves a degree there's no guarantee they're going to use it to earn an income, to give back something of the knowledge they gained to society ... and if they don't, is the taxpayer subsidy wasted?

On the other hand, many people do work hard, both in study and upon obtaining their degree/s and using what they learned to contribute something back into the society that supported their education.

Skipping forward here and getting to the point ... On balance, and with the premise that an educated population is a progressive one on many levels, I prefer to subsidise education for its benefits to society and to pragmatically absorb the waste while continuing to find ways to minimise it.

[Tyrannical]

Define "plenty". If by "plenty" you mean "some," OK. But if you mean that most non-degreed people are fully self-supporting, I'd have to doubt that.

Thirty-seven percent of employed women have a bachelor's degree or higher, compared to 35 percent of men, according to 2010 census figures. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/census-2 ... d=13461125

I.e. 2/3 of working Americans do not have a bachelor's degree. It's clearly not necessary to be employed.

Degrees in what? Four years studying dumbfuckery doesn't really count. That's something only the rich can afford.

[Coito ergo sum]

@ CES: It's much simpler than that. What's the average income ceiling of a person with a high school diploma or less compared to that of someone with an undergrad or higher? Exceptions like Bill Gates and auto workers aside.

Auto workers aren't exactly "exceptions." The average ceiling depends on industry. Plenty of construction workers have no degrees, and they can make some good money. Lots of them become developers and general contractors themselves. Mechanics and the like don't need college degrees, etc. Soldiers and sailors, etc., they don't have to have degrees. The guys who come around and mow people's lawns make more than minimum wage....

[Coito ergo sum]

Define "plenty". If by "plenty" you mean "some," OK. But if you mean that most non-degreed people are fully self-supporting, I'd have to doubt that.

Thirty-seven percent of employed women have a bachelor's degree or higher, compared to 35 percent of men, according to 2010 census figures. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/census-2 ... d=13461125

I.e. 2/3 of working Americans do not have a bachelor's degree. It's clearly not necessary to be employed.

Degrees in what? Four years studying dumbfuckery doesn't really count. That's something only the rich can afford.

I'm not certain what you're getting at here. I don't care what anyone's degree is in. Just don't ask me to pay for it.

Someone who goes in for Chemical or Electrical Engineering can pay for it himself or herself, and if there is a poverty issue, there are grants, and if there is a need for federally guaranteed loans, they are there. The salary will be enough to start paying the stuff back. If they take out ridiculous amounts of money in loans to pay for housing and food, not just tuition, well, they are putting themselves in a hole. But, such degrees can be obtained normally "in state" with lower "in state" tuition fees, and within driving distance from someone's home. If someone chooses to relocate across the country, spend $200,000 to go to school and pay rent and buy food and beverages, etc., then I don't see as why that choice needs to be subsidized by the rest of us. Go to the local college. I'm sorry if it's not what a person prefers or desires. Sometimes we have to make due. And, there are plenty of other needier people around that need help.