What were you before you became and atheist?

[JimC]

Only God is eternal.

Bald assertion without evidence.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

I Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Genesis 21:33
And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God.

Deuteronomy 33:27
The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

Find me any atheist text that makes similar claims. Yes, yes, the Bible is wrong, I know, I know.... So why use concepts that originate from it? Concepts like "Never".

I'll tell you why - because we're pretty much all unreconstructed cultural theists; that fact shines through in our language, our attitudes and our belief systems, not least yours Zilla. Where does all that Zilla wrath come from anyway? It surely can't be original?

It is drawing a very long bow to claim that using the word "never" springs from the trappings of religious belief. You were possibly a little closer to the mark in earlier posts, discussing concepts of guilt and retributive punishment, but this is stretching a conceptual framework well behond its breaking point.

As Charlou suggested before, it is perfectly possible to be an atheist in the true sense of the word, while still recognising that aspects of one's personality have been influenced by the prevailing culture, one that draws from a long history of religious thought. This insistence on describing these minor influences as "cultural theism" is another exaggerated metaphor...

As for a philosophical discussion of the concept of "never", it is simply human terminology for an estimated probabilty of zero. How accurate that estimate is varies considerably...

[Geoff]

Only God is eternal. To deny something into eternity is to make an alliance with God. Therefore 'never' is a deeply, deeply religious idea. I would never use the word, personally.

Fail. No mention of eternity is necessary. I've been in existence 56 years, and have been an atheist all that time. Therefore I've "never been anything but an atheist".

You really aren't very good at this, are you?

You only need to mention the last 56 years then. To bring in the whole of eternity and everything that preceded it is not only unnecessary but profoundly religious. But given what you said, I doubt you'd ever understand that.

No, because the original statement relates only to me. Whatever else existed before then, I wasn't part of it, because I didn't exist.

[Rum]

The phrase 'cultural Christianity' is misleading in my view. Of course our culture is hugely influenced by Christianity - it is more or less founded on it. Its totems are everywhere in our towns and cities, it is embedded in our laws and perhaps in much o our thinking. So what? What else would one expect with 1600 years of it under our belts (here in the UK).

A belief in the god that inspires or underpins all of that is a separate matter altogether.

[Svartalf]

Well, I certainly am a cultural christian, given that I can't get rid of chretinous imagery and formmulae in my very speech, not to mention my prejudice against heathens like those damned mussulman.

[charlou]

Well, I certainly am a cultural christian, given that I can't get rid of chretinous imagery and formmulae in my very speech, not to mention my prejudice against heathens like those damned mussulman.

If that were the case, then in our increasingly multicultural societies we'd have to apply a lot of labels to ourselves as the various cultures have an effect in influencing our lives, however overt or subtle those effects may be.

I don't think being affected/influenced by christianity in culture amounts to being a 'cultural christian' any more than, for example, being affected/influenced by conservative values in a society would make one a 'cultural conservative'.

[Rum]

Quite so. All our holidays (including Sundays) are religiously based originally, the language of the Bible is embedded in English. There's no escaping its influence. That makes me a human being influenced by the culture which rested upon an understanding of the world which was a Christian one. Using a label like 'cultural Christian' isn't helpful in my view. It gives the religion too much credit.

[JimC]

Quite so. All our holidays (including Sundays) are religiously based originally, the language of the Bible is embedded in English. There's no escaping its influence. That makes me a human being influenced by the culture which rested upon an understanding of the world which was a Christian one. Using a label like 'cultural Christian' isn't helpful in my view. It gives the religion too much credit.

I think Exi was digging beneath the surface, and claiming that some fairly deep-seated, almost "unconscious" parts of our culture are more affected by theistic concepts than we might imagine on the surface. For some aspects such as the ethos of punishment and retribution, there may be something in such an analysis. But it can be stretched only so far...

[Rum]

Yes, I realise that and there may be a lot in that view, though punishment and retribution predate Christianity and Judaism (which should take almost equal credit) I have no doubt.

[charlou]

Yes, I think religion has generally been, at least in part, an attempt to codify and enforce preexisting values and ideals which developed over time, while invoking a "higher authority", and with varying degrees of success during its history.

[Hermit]

Can anybody really claim to be an atheist? We are all brought up in an intensely capitalistic world whose ideology is inextricably intertwined, if not founded upon, patriarchal religion. Can we possibly throw off the mantle of indoctrination by religion, even if that indoctrination was not delivered directly by religion itself?

To me atheism is no more than a lack of belief in a supernatural entity. I have stepped away from theism via a sequence of two clearly identified event. A few years later I rejected deism on grounds of one concrete realisation. If anyone is interested in details, you can read about them in this post.

As for socialisation, I keep that separate from the issue of theism/atheism, no matter how much of it is tinged by religious institutions and doctrines.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You only need to mention the last 56 years then. To bring in the whole of eternity and everything that preceded it is not only unnecessary but profoundly religious. But given what you said, I doubt you'd ever understand that.

Alas, Babble-on.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'll tell you why - because we're pretty much all unreconstructed cultural theists; that fact shines through in our language, our attitudes and our belief systems, not least yours Zilla. Where does all that Zilla wrath come from anyway? It surely can't be original?

Wrath? Don't flatter yourself. I love poking pompous people. You're my current favorite. Gawd thanks you for this, I think.

[Coito ergo sum]

Only God is eternal. To deny something into eternity is to make an alliance with God. Therefore 'never' is a deeply, deeply religious idea. I would never use the word, personally.

Fail. No mention of eternity is necessary. I've been in existence 56 years, and have been an atheist all that time. Therefore I've "never been anything but an atheist".

You really aren't very good at this, are you?

You only need to mention the last 56 years then. To bring in the whole of eternity and everything that preceded it is not only unnecessary but profoundly religious. But given what you said, I doubt you'd ever understand that.

It's only religious if you redefine the word "religious" mean something that it doesn't mean in common English usage.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It's only religious if you redefine the word "religious" mean something that it doesn't mean in common English usage.

Religion tries to subsume all possible definitions in order to be as intrusive as possible in our lives. Knowing they don't have any actual reason for existence makes the God-peddlers nervous.

[Coito ergo sum]

Only God is eternal.

Bald assertion without evidence.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

I Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Genesis 21:33
And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God.

Deuteronomy 33:27
The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

Find me any atheist text that makes similar claims. Yes, yes, the Bible is wrong, I know, I know.... So why use concepts that originate from it? Concepts like "Never".

The Bible borrowed the concept of "Never" from previous man-made philosophies and religions. It did not "originate" the concept.

I'll tell you why - because we're pretty much all unreconstructed cultural theists; that fact shines through in our language, our attitudes and our belief systems, not least yours Zilla. Where does all that Zilla wrath come from anyway? It surely can't be original?

One is only a theist if one believes in a god (which intervenes or plays a role in human affairs). One is a deist if one believes in a god or supernatural power that originated the universe but plays no role in it thereafter. One is a polytheist if one believes in multiple intervening gods. One is atheist if one believes that there are no gods, or that there is insufficient evidence from which to conclude their are any gods. And, one is agnostic if one thinks the existence of gods is unknowable, as opposed to merely unknown.

The fact that religion has influenced our culture doesn't change any of that, and it certainly doesn't make an atheist a theist.