Al Qaeta Protests Illegal Killing

[Ian]

You both got me wrong. I don't give a toss who kills who, between Al Qaeda and the US.

But it's perfectly clear that the US is in no way morally superior to Al Qaeda. They are at best, as bad as each other. At worst, the US has least moral justification.
They both use the argument that they have been attacked, and are defending themselves.
The US is the biggest liar, because it's perfectly obvious that if they had stayed at home, and didn't interfere in Arab countries, nobody would have attacked them.
The US started it.
In a situation where both are claiming to be defending themselves, the US is the biggest liar.

They start a war, and then claim self defence.

The US is in no way morally superior to Al Qaeda, huh?

What attacks, exactly, did the US do to Al Qaeda before those poor misunderstood freedom fighters started blowing things up? What did the Spanish, Indonesian, Pakistani, British, Kenyan, Tanzanian and various Muslim people do to them? They all attacked Al Qaeda first?

You're just looking for a political excuse for Al Qaeda and what it does, but you're not able to think like them. Al Qaeda uses religious excuses for its own ends, and then idiots in the west assume they must have some reasonable politics behind them. "Well, there's two sides fighting; they must be equally responsible and equally bad people." What a pile of brainless crap. Go live under sharia law and then live in the US and tell me which side is more to blame. The US & the west started nothing. Seriously, what first strikes upon Islam are the west responsible for? Unless of course you want to say that basing troops in Saudi Arabia, at Saudi Arabia's blessing, justifies jihad. That and support for Israel (boo fucking hoo) is what Al Qaeda has complained about.

[Coito ergo sum]

You both got me wrong. I don't give a toss who kills who, between Al Qaeda and the US.

That's your first mistake.

But it's perfectly clear that the US is in no way morally superior to Al Qaeda. They are at best, as bad as each other. At worst, the US has least moral justification.

You see, but that's bollocks. Al Qaeta is seeking to establish a theocratic caliphate throughout Islamic lands and to spread Islam to lands that are not currently under the Islamic boot heel. And, it was Al Qaeta that attacked the US in 1993, and throughout the 1990s. The US took the hits with very little reaction, except a few missiles fired by Bill Clinton. We slept until 9/11.

They both use the argument that they have been attacked, and are defending themselves.

Sure, but the US didn't attack Al Qaeta prior to Al Qaeta attacking the US in 1993 and throughout the 1990s.

The US is the biggest liar, because it's perfectly obvious that if they had stayed at home, and didn't interfere in Arab countries, nobody would have attacked them.

Afghanistan is not an Arab country.

But, Al Qaeta isn't the government of any Arab country, and the suggestion that if the US does business with and interacts with Arab countries, then some "organization" will attack the US is akin to being asked to pay protection money to a mob racket.

The US started it.

How so? By doing what? Dealing with Saudi Arabia? Ousting Saddam Hussein from Kuwait (under United Nations auspices)? What?

In a situation where both are claiming to be defending themselves, the US is the biggest liar.

You need to specify what the US said that was intentionally not true.

They start a war, and then claim self defence.

The war started long before the US even knew it was being attacked. 1993 -- remember that?




1998 - US Embassies in Kenya and in Tanzania....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze95TTFE ... re=related[/youtube]

[mistermack]

All that is how YOU see it.
They think otherwise. They think that the US is grinding the people of Saudi and Kuwait down, by propping up the gangsters who run the countries. They think that the US is grinding the Palestinians down, by propping up the religious nuts who have stolen their country, and their so-called holy places.

They think that the US is basically keeping most moslem countries ground down, so that they can get their oil cheap.
They see the big sulk that the US goes into, when they lose their puppet, like when the Iranians kicked out the US puppet, the Shah.

I don't expect YOU to agree. But that's how they see it.
And it's closer to the truth than what you said.
When they attacked the US, they see it as fighting back. And I can see their point.

[Seth]

Al-Qaeda has also criticized the Obama administration for killing U.S. citizens, saying doing so “contradicts” American law.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/che ... _blog.html

On the "go fuck yourself" scale, well....this goes to 11.

You know what also "contradicts American law," dickfaces? Hijacking planes and ramming them into buildings, killing thousands of civilians.

American law has no jurisdiction over foreigners, so there is no contradiction there.

It does when they enter American airspace or set foot in America, which all the hijackers did.

But, somebody tell Al Quaeda all they have to do is appear before a US federal judge to file a complaint...we'll be waiting.

[Robert_S]

First law: Stay alive.

Not going after people who have declared war on you and have the prosecuted that war is a great way of breaking that rule.

[Coito ergo sum]

All that is how YOU see it.

Well, it's axiomatic that each of us sees things the way we see it.

They think otherwise. They think that the US is grinding the people of Saudi and Kuwait down, by propping up the gangsters who run the countries. They think that the US is grinding the Palestinians down, by propping up the religious nuts who have stolen their country, and their so-called holy places.

So, anytime a gang of thugs doesn't think US policy is correct, we are to knuckle under and comply, or face the consequences?

They think that the US is basically keeping most moslem countries ground down, so that they can get their oil cheap

They see the big sulk that the US goes into, when they lose their puppet, like when the Iranians kicked out the US puppet, the Shah.

I don't expect YOU to agree. But that's how they see it.
And it's closer to the truth than what you said.
When they attacked the US, they see it as fighting back. And I can see their point.

That's the way YOU see it.

The reality is quite different, since the goal of Al Qaeta is to create a united theocratic Islamic Caliphate from which to move on to convert the world.

But, it's up to the Kuwaitis to decide what Kuwait does. Not Al Qaeta. If the Mafia doesn't like the way we're dealing with Italy, it doesn't mean they have a salient point.

[Ian]

Mistermack has identified that Al Qaeda has its reasons. Of course they do, and so what? Every barbarism in history has had its own excuses. If Genghis Khan's Mongol Hordes re-appeared today, no doubt there would be people (including a few on this forum) pointing out that they have their reasons for what they do. Even if Al Qaeda is correct that western relations with Saudi Arabia and Kuwait etc. "are grinding their citizens down" etc., does that justify jihad?

I'm of the opinion that the current trade imbalance between the US and China is resulting in the greatest transfer of wealth in history, from the western world to east Asia. And this imbalance harms people around me. Should I take out my frustrations and bring publicity to the issue by going over to China and blowing up a building full of people in Shanghai? How about if I blame Wal-Mart and Apple for all their manufacturing in China and decide to assassinate some Wal-Mart and Apple executives? Do I have a reasonable moral standing just because I came up with my own excuse to kill people?

[mistermack]

Ian, your country has been blowing people to bits in foreign countries since I was ten.

The only time they REALLY had a chance to defend the innocent, they waited years till the japs bombed them into the war.

I'm not saying Al-Qaeda are anything special. Just that THEY are responding the US coming over and shitting in their back yard. They aren't in it for the money or cheap oil.

Basically, that the US is an american version of Al-Qaeda with a gullible populace to pay the bills.
I'm just responding to the lying bullshit that they put out. The US government want to bomb their way round the world, but still want to be seen as some kind of white knight.

Even if Al Qaeda is correct that western relations with Saudi Arabia and Kuwait etc. "are grinding their citizens down" etc., does that justify jihad?

Yes. Jihad is their "war on terror". It has exactly the same excuse.
If you can justify what's been done in the name of the war on terror, they can and do exactly the same.

[Ian]

It is my considered opinion that the whole mess was unnecessary and that Al Qaeda deserves by far the lion's share of the blame for staring it. That's my excuse.

I make no excuses for other aspects of the history of US foreign policy, but you're focused on the US. Al Qaeda kills people of all sorts of nationalities and religions, none of whom attacked Al Qaeda first. They're terrorists, and I do not for a minute consider them to be on our level of moral standing (yes, I said OUR. You're part of the infidel west too).

For all its moral ambiguity and controvery, I have little difficulty definding the US and western civilizatoion as it relates to jihadist terrorism. Step back and you'll see that you're making excuses for Al Qaeda. Hope you're proud of yourself.

[Coito ergo sum]

Ian, your country has been blowing people to bits in foreign countries since I was ten.

Aren't you British of some sort, or UK-ish? That's a fundamentally hilarious accusation coming from the Empire upon which the sun never set, which ruled over 1/4 of the Earth's population, and 1/4 of its land area.

The only time they REALLY had a chance to defend the innocent, they waited years till the japs bombed them into the war.

You would have suggested that the US go to war against a country that never attacked it? How incongruous...

I'm not saying Al-Qaeda are anything special. Just that THEY are responding the US coming over and shitting in their back yard. They aren't in it for the money or cheap oil.

You have any concrete examples of what the US specifically did? Or, is this a general "US sucks" diatribe?

Basically, that the US is an american version of Al-Qaeda with a gullible populace to pay the bills.
I'm just responding to the lying bullshit that they put out. The US government want to bomb their way round the world, but still want to be seen as some kind of white knight.

Even if Al Qaeda is correct that western relations with Saudi Arabia and Kuwait etc. "are grinding their citizens down" etc., does that justify jihad?

Yes. Jihad is their "war on terror". It has exactly the same excuse.
If you can justify what's been done in the name of the war on terror, they can and do exactly the same.

Kuwait welcomed out help. Saudi Arabia welcomed our help. A criminal gang doesn't like it.

[mistermack]

But, it's up to the Kuwaitis to decide what Kuwait does. Not Al Qaeta.

That just shows how little you understand, and how much bullshit you swallow.
The US attacked Iraq, and kicked them out of Kuwait, to reimpose their own puppet gangsters. The Kuwaitis were given NO CHOICE in the matter.
You don't seem to understand what's happening. You get your information fed to you in a trough by your government, and you just gobble it up without looking.

[mistermack]

Aren't you British of some sort, or UK-ish? That's a fundamentally hilarious accusation coming from the Empire upon which the sun never set, which ruled over 1/4 of the Earth's population, and 1/4 of its land area.

You've made that same dumb comment before. It just demonstrates your mindset. My country did it. Therefore, I must support it.
And that's exactly how you argue on every thread.
I'm disgusted at the history of the British Empire. I wish it had never happened.

Kuwait welcomed our help. Saudi Arabia welcomed our help. A criminal gang doesn't like it.

I'm constantly stunned by the bullshit you post.
The Kuwaiti and Saudi royal gangsters welcomed your help.
And the US was just helping itself. Everybody knows that except you, apparently.

[Coito ergo sum]

Kuwait welcomed our help. Saudi Arabia welcomed our help. A criminal gang doesn't like it.

I'm constantly stunned by the bullshit you post.
The Kuwaiti and Saudi royal gangsters welcomed your help.
And the US was just helping itself. Everybody knows that except you, apparently.

LOL - you'll call the Kuwaiti and Saudi governments gangsters, but Al Qaeta have legitimate gripes. Do you even listen to yourself babble?

Of course the US was helping itself, but not "just" helping itself. The Kuwaitis were quite pleased being rid of the Iraqi occupation.

Moreover, you forget that it was a UN approved action, and the broadest coalition in world history. Even that's not good enough for you? Why don't you spend your time bitching at your own fucking country and its intervention in Libya? There is less international support for your country's action there, but you do nothing but harp on the US. Why?

[mistermack]

Moreover, you forget that it was a UN approved action, and the broadest coalition in world history. Even that's not good enough for you? Why don't you spend your time bitching at your own fucking country and its intervention in Libya? There is less international support for your country's action there, but you do nothing but harp on the US. Why?

This thread's about Al-Qaeda. Did you miss that?

I'm not surprised you want to change the subject, after some of the stuff you've posted.

[Coito ergo sum]

Moreover, you forget that it was a UN approved action, and the broadest coalition in world history. Even that's not good enough for you? Why don't you spend your time bitching at your own fucking country and its intervention in Libya? There is less international support for your country's action there, but you do nothing but harp on the US. Why?

This thread's about Al-Qaeda. Did you miss that?

No I didn't miss that. What I miss is the deluge of posts from you protesting the evils of British imperialism, and how the Brits in Libya are no better than Qadafi or Al Qaeta.

I'm not surprised you want to change the subject, after some of the stuff you've posted.

I'm not sure what world you live in, but I hope you're enjoying your stay in fantasyland.