Unicef criticises Britain for jailing children over riots

[Ronja]

If I were stuck in crashed and burning underground train I would rather know there was an authoritarian cop with a clear plan worked out in his head, shouting orders to make sure the ambulances and fire engines were guided to the optimum position, than a kindly democrat handing out ballot papers to everyone involved in order to conduct a referendum on what to do next. Fortunately this scenario doesn't happen to me very often. Most of the time, I despise authoritarianism.

So you did not read (or understand) anything of the material I linked to.

Read this, again: In a real disaster situation, the "kindly democrat" that you present above is a complete red herring: no research within the last 60 years has been able to show even one case of such behavior, anywhere. With or without the bobby with a whistle, the survivors get organized and work together in a goal-oriented and productive way, and things get slowly better. The survivors may or may not have one or more de facto leaders, but leadership as a function of the whole group is much more important than leaders. The real challenge for the official rescue workers - if they are properly trained professionals who understand reality - when they arrive at the scene is how to effectively and efficiently become an integral part of the effort already going on in the area - not how to "take over" and order the survivors about.

That paragraph that you wrote looks as if you are convinced that only a designated authority figure, with an authoritarian attitude, can create and maintain order in a chaotic situation. This is blatantly false (the evidence from research shows this) in both everyday situations and unusual situations, including disasters.

Now do you see why I said that you appeared to be more focused/fixated on authority than anyone else in this thread?

[Exi5tentialist]

If I were stuck in crashed and burning underground train I would rather know there was an authoritarian cop with a clear plan worked out in his head, shouting orders to make sure the ambulances and fire engines were guided to the optimum position, than a kindly democrat handing out ballot papers to everyone involved in order to conduct a referendum on what to do next. Fortunately this scenario doesn't happen to me very often. Most of the time, I despise authoritarianism.

So you did not read (or understand) anything of the material I linked to.

Read this, again: In a real disaster situation, the "kindly democrat" that you present above is a complete red herring: no research within the last 60 years has been able to show even one case of such behavior, anywhere. With or without the bobby with a whistle, the survivors get organized and work together in a goal-oriented and productive way, and things get slowly better. The survivors may or may not have one or more de facto leaders, but leadership as a function of the whole group is much more important than leaders. The real challenge for the official rescue workers - if they are properly trained professionals who understand reality - when they arrive at the scene is how to effectively and efficiently become an integral part of the effort already going on in the area - not how to "take over" and order the survivors about.

That paragraph that you wrote looks as if you are convinced that only a designated authority figure, with an authoritarian attitude, can create and maintain order in a chaotic situation. This is blatantly false (the evidence from research shows this) in both everyday situations and unusual situations, including disasters.

Now do you see why I said that you appeared to be more focused/fixated on authority than anyone else in this thread?

I'm sure there is a mix of roles in such situations: a mix of authority and authoritarianism (as I described it in the limited way above), self-organising survivors, passers-by - just like your reports all say. What the mix is depends on what part of the action we're talking about really. I'm not convinced of what you imagine I'm convinced of, but I love the way you keep trying to characterise me as fixated, and the care and time you put into constructing this damning picture. E for effort, I feel.