Global Climate Change Science News

[Brian Peacock]

One valid observation Scotty is making is that all nations need to participate in fighting the fire, and Australia is not pulling its weight.

When has Ozland ever pulled its weight? A great country for digging itself up and selling off its natural resources.

This is a misconception. In a trans-national economic environment one cannot point to this-or-that nation in this way. As Hermit pointed out Australian coal is owned an managed globally not nationally, and there's little chance of Ozzie coal being taken into public ownership. Climate distractors like to point the finger of blame at Australia or China for example, but they're less inclined to point the finger at those actually investing in these fossil fuel economies - not least because those financial interests are probably paying them to disrupt the conversation. The answer of course is to halt investment in the sector and the corporate welfare payments for the fossil fuel industry taken from the public purse which drive that investment, and to put that money to work solving the problem.

Whose fault was it that it fell into international hands? Greedy Ozzies no doubt. Any excuse is better than none. So a country cant control what is going on within its own borders? What is government for? Who is doing the digging?
It is purely Ozland's fault. They sold it and they can take it back. Too many backhanders and brown envelopes.

You seem resistant to the idea that the structure of the global energy economy cannot be pinned on flaws in the national character of this-or-that nation or put down to a collective moral failing.

Have you not noticed that the World lives under an economic system, which we still call Capitalism, that transcends international borders; one that left to its own devices will extract from the ground every last drop of coal, oil, and gas, every kilogram of mineral and ore, one that will deplete every aquifer and water source, turn every pasture into desert, poison the atmosphere and the land, and exploit every last citizen on Earth in the process? The end game of Capitalism is planetary death, as I believe Shakespeare once put it.

How many nations are rejecting Capitalism as an economic model at the moment? Is the Netherlands?

The Netherlands is home to a large concentration of energy and emission-intensive industries and remains heavily reliant on fossil fuels. From the period of 2008 to 2018 the share of fossil fuels in the total primary energy supply (TPES) of the NL fell only by 2%, from 92% to 90% (link: IEA report). Against that slight decline, in the four years from 2016 to 2020 NL energy subsidies and tax breaks increased by 10%, from €4.1bn to €4.5bn (link: OECD [pdf]). Over a similar period the NL pension firm ABP, the 5th largest in the world, increased its investment share in the fossil fuel sector by 17%, from €14bn in 2015 to €16.5bn by 2018 (link: Greenpeace), a state of affairs highlighted by Dutch climate protesters only last month.

How should we respond to this? Should we say, "So when has NL ever pulled its weight? A great country for investing in the digging up and selling off of natural resources."? Is that informative, or a useful contribution to the discuss? The thing is, the NL is unremarkable in this respect - it is just another Capitalist country embedded within the regional Capitalist system of the EU which is embedded within a global Capitalist system. The NL is just taking part in Captialism, in doing what Capitalism does: bleeding everything and everyone dry.

In September 2020 the European Commission recommended that the EU should set a domestic emission reduction target for each member state of at least 55% below 1990 levels by 2030. How does that noble aspiration sit with the information above do you think?

As I said earlier, the whole house in on fire now. Instead of getting sucked into distracted and distracting complaints about China or Australia, you, as a citizen of the NL, should be turning to your own govt and demanding that they start tackling the inferno engulfing your corner of the property - as indeed should we all.

[Scot Dutchy]

Who is worried about the Netherlands? We are talking about Ozland but of course any diversion will do. The normal Peacock response. It was Ozland land that was sold. Who sold it? Stop chumping on about international this or that as it is just smoke screens. Ozzies are greedy buggers and care bugger all about what happens to the country or its inhabitants. Every thing is sold to Asia without thought. Those open cast mines are so huge they can be seen from space. Where does that coal go to? The Chinese as well as domestic use. We wont mention the oil will we.
But of course this tiny country with 17 million people affects everyone world wide. Please...

[pErvinalia]

You really shouldn't bother, Brian. It's like casting pearls before swine.

[pErvinalia]

But of course this tiny country with 17 million people affects everyone world wide. Please...

At least get your facts right when you are presenting factless screeds. It's 25 million.

[Scot Dutchy]

You really shouldn't bother, Brian. It's like casting pearls before swine.

How would you know TB.

[Scot Dutchy]

But of course this tiny country with 17 million people affects everyone world wide. Please...

At least get your facts right when you are presenting factless screeds. It's 25 million.

Which country am I talking about here TB. Which country has 17 million? Flew right over your head did it not. You are out of your sandpit.

[pErvinalia]

Sorry, got lost in your anti-Oz screed. I suppose this is one to add to the tracks on repeat like 'chumocracy', 'anglo-saxon mindset', 'corruption', etc etc.

[Hermit]

But of course this tiny country with 17 million people affects everyone world wide. Please...

At least get your facts right when you are presenting factless screeds. It's 25 million.

Dutchy is referring to the Netherlands. Its population of 17 million cannot possibly affect every one of the world's 7,500 million people. Add another 8 million changes the scenario completely, don't you see?

[Scot Dutchy]

How about this on the UK:

UK spending far more on polluting policies than green ones, says WWF

Just £145m of budget went on environment with £40bn spent on emissions-increasing measures, says charity

The UK government is spending many times more on measures that will increase greenhouse gas emissions than on policies to tackle the climate crisis, according to an analysis of the spring budget.

Only £145m in the March 2021 budget was devoted to environmental spending, most of it on the post-Brexit emissions trading scheme for industry, according to an analysis by the conservation charity WWF. But the cost of tax breaks to companies to encourage investment came to more than £34bn, while maintaining the fuel duty freeze – for an 11th consecutive year – is costing about £4.5bn in lost revenues.

Tensions over the government’s commitment to net zero emissions, and the potential cost of policies to meet the target, are said to be one of the chief bones of contention between the prime minister and the chancellor, Rishi Sunak. The two are said to have had at least one blazing row recently.

Nice one UK.

[Brian Peacock]

Who is worried about the Netherlands? We are talking about Ozland but of course any diversion will do. The normal Peacock response. It was Ozland land that was sold. Who sold it? Stop chumping on about international this or that as it is just smoke screens. Ozzies are greedy buggers and care bugger all about what happens to the country or its inhabitants. Every thing is sold to Asia without thought. Those open cast mines are so huge they can be seen from space. Where does that coal go to? The Chinese as well as domestic use. We wont mention the oil will we.
But of course this tiny country with 17 million people affects everyone world wide. Please...

... Instead of getting sucked into distracted and distracting complaints about China or Australia, you, as a citizen of the NL, should be turning to your own govt and demanding that they start tackling the inferno engulfing your corner of the property - as indeed should we all.

The NL self-reports 13 areas of fossil fuel production and consumption subsidy (grants, subsidies, and tax breaks) to the OECD under a methodology established and internationally agreed in 2019. However, the figure I gave for total subsidies of €4.5bn pa only covers seven of the 13 that the NL govt provides data on. Six of those identified areas are not reported because, although the subsidies and tax exemptions are in place, the NL has decided that tax expenditure should not form part of the regular reporting practice or because the NL govt has not developed viable benchmarks against which to estimate the revenues. So, about half of the areas the NL govt identifies as benefiting from fossil fuel production and consumption subsidies are not reported. This is something that NL citizens can apply pressure through the democratic process, because a nation cannot review and develop policy on phasing out fossil production and consumption if it lacks a complete picture on where and how much money is being redistributed to the sector.

I mention this only because your anger/frustration at Australia and China is basically impotent and distracts from the core issue. As a citizen of the NL you can do next to nothing about what goes on in Oz, but you can do something about what goes on in the NL. Just as I can do something about what goes on in the UK, and as the citizens of Australia can do downunder. As I said before, the first step is to systematically disinvest from a sector of the economy that is literally killing us all, and govts have a substantial part to play here. Arguments that this-or-that country should/shouldn't do this-or-that as a precondition for domestic progress are bogus and counter-productive.

[pErvinalia]

Who is worried about the Netherlands? We are talking about Ozland but of course any diversion will do. The normal Peacock response. It was Ozland land that was sold. Who sold it? Stop chumping on about international this or that as it is just smoke screens. Ozzies are greedy buggers and care bugger all about what happens to the country or its inhabitants. Every thing is sold to Asia without thought. Those open cast mines are so huge they can be seen from space. Where does that coal go to? The Chinese as well as domestic use. We wont mention the oil will we.
But of course this tiny country with 17 million people affects everyone world wide. Please...

... Instead of getting sucked into distracted and distracting complaints about China or Australia, you, as a citizen of the NL, should be turning to your own govt and demanding that they start tackling the inferno engulfing your corner of the property - as indeed should we all.

The NL self-reports 13 areas of fossil fuel production and consumption subsidy (grants, subsidies, and tax breaks) to the OECD under a methodology established and internationally agreed in 2019.

Fairy data.

[Hermit]

As I said before, the first step is to systematically disinvest from a sector of the economy that is literally killing us all, and govts have a substantial part to play here.

Easier said than done. Look at who we vote into government. Then ask yourself why we choose them (Hint: brainwashing). Governments rule for the benefit of business. Especially big business. They do just enough for the plebs to keep them quiet. That goes for countries with a modicum of democracy, including most European countries and of course Australia. In non-democratic countries they don't even need to throw crumbs at the masses. They keep them in check with brute force or the threat of it.

[Brian Peacock]

This is why you need to take to the streets Hermit. "Person the barricades!!"

[JimC]

Basically we're fucked...

[Hermit]

This is why you need to take to the streets Hermit. "Person the barricades!!"

"The streets", you say? Like "in public"? A hermit in public?