A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by kiki5711 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:58 pm

IT: So Kiki was "basically" baited. She broke the rules. If she really wanted to say something back she could have PM'd the person who "basically" baited her. She wanted to say that on purpose though, she just write that above. And you're trying to tie the blame with another member and the Mods. Right.
No I wouldn't. Why do you say things like you know me? I never pm anyone to complain, nor have I (but once, and that was cause they reported me and I got annoyed) never report anyone.

But I started getting really pissed when people were reporting me left and right. I couldn't say anything. They were pressing those report buttons like hot cakes. But when those same people insulted me, they felt they were above it all. When I responded to their insult they reported me. So they can insult me but when I retaliate then it's abuse? WTF!!! I still didn't report cause I think it's childish. But it got so damn annoying it was ridiculous that it got me mad.

ANyhoo, all under the bridge. I don't care any more.

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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by Warren Dew » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:22 pm

Imagination Theory wrote:That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Could you back it up?
Just go through and collect all the formal and informal warnings against various personalities on the forum. You'll find that the ratio of formal warnings to informal warnings is very low for the favored posters, much lower than for the posters the moderators generally dislike.
So Kiki was "basically" baited. She broke the rules.
Again, if everyone got formal warnings when they broke the rules, that would be fine with me. When it's only people with certain subsets of views, that's a problem. I don't agree with kiki on the mosque, for example, but she did add things to the discussion, in particular citing the French experience, that provided a perspective I hadn't thought of and that I learned from. When minority views like that are effectively quashed, the forum is no longer a place where rational skeptics like me can learn, and it loses its value to us.

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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by kiki5711 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:35 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Imagination Theory wrote:That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Could you back it up?
Just go through and collect all the formal and informal warnings against various personalities on the forum. You'll find that the ratio of formal warnings to informal warnings is very low for the favored posters, much lower than for the posters the moderators generally dislike.
So Kiki was "basically" baited. She broke the rules.
Again, if everyone got formal warnings when they broke the rules, that would be fine with me. When it's only people with certain subsets of views, that's a problem. I don't agree with kiki on the mosque, for example, but she did add things to the discussion, in particular citing the French experience, that provided a perspective I hadn't thought of and that I learned from. When minority views like that are effectively quashed, the forum is no longer a place where rational skeptics like me can learn, and it loses its value to us.
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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by Trolldor » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:40 pm

Imagination Theory wrote:I was just showing the "problems with the rigid, uptight atmosphere that exists at ratskep that you and GS have run into. "

If I said that stuff, and wasn't joking, and it was on a serious thread, would it be permissible here Mods?

It would be permissable here. Hell, you could come on to this forum and bitch about this forum, we do it all the time. The only things not allowed are targeted attacks at individual members and illegal content, really.


Secondly, it's a fact of the internets. Favoured members of any internet board are going to be treated more fairly by the mods, and vice versa more favoured mods are more likely to be excused for their shit by the members.
Also... the fuck?

:devogue: :pot:

Firstly, get that fat ass off the front smilies page, and secondly the pot is silver and the kettle is white.
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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:48 pm

leo-rcc wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Sorry, I don't watch vid's online (crap internet connection :cry: )
I've looked up the transcipt for you.
Source: http://www.amindatplay.eu/2009/12/02/in ... ranscript/
Christopher Hitchens @ Intelligence Squared debate wrote:Now I’m sorry to have to begin by disagreeing with His Grace. If you’re going to be a serious grown-up person, and appear to defend the Catholic church in public in front of an educated and literate audience, you simply have to start by making a great number of heartfelt apologies and requests for contrition and forgiveness.

Now you might ask, you’re fully entitled to ask, brothers and sisters, who am I to say that? Well, in the jubilee millennium year of 2000 the Vatican spokesman Bishop Piero Marini said, explaining a whole sermon of apology given by His Holiness the Pope, given the number of sins we’ve committed in the course of twenty centuries, reference to them must necessarily be rather summary. Well I think Bishop Marini had that just about right, I’ll have to be summary, too. His Holiness on that occasion—it was March the 12th, 2000, if you wish to look it up—begged forgiveness for, among some other things, the crusades, the Inquisition, the persecution of the Jewish people, in justice towards women, that’s half the human race right there, and the forced conversion of indigenous peoples, especially in South America, the African slave trade, the admission that Galileo was right, and for silence during Hitler’s Final Solution or Shoah. And it doesn’t end there, there are smaller but significant—equally significant—avowals of a very bad conscience. These have included regret for the rape and torture of orphans and other children in church-run schools in almost every country on Earth, from Ireland to Australia.

These are very serious matters, and they’re not to be laughed off by the references to the occasional work of Catholic charities. But I draw you attention not just to the apologies, ladies and gentlemen, but to the evasive and euphemistic form that they take. Joseph Ratzinger, the current Pope, considered by some, considered by Catholics to be the Vicar of Christ on Earth, in his comment, one of the few he’s made on the institutionalisation of rape and torture and maltreatment of children in Catholic institutions, he said it’s a very severe crisis which involves us, he said, in the following: in the need for applying to these victims the most loving, pastoral care. Well I’m sorry, they’ve already had that, and to say that this is the response to be laid upon you, by the horrific admission that you’ve already had to make is not accepting responsibility in any adult sense. The same euphemism comes, in the term some Christians allow themselves to be deceived in this way and to act against the gospel, well, anti-Semitism was preached as an official doctrine of the Church until 1964.

Do you think that might have something to do with public opinion in Austria, and Bavaria, and Poland, and Lithuania? There’ll come a time, when the church will issue apologies, and explanations, and half-baked appeals for forgiveness for things it’s still doing. I think that there will be an apology for what happened in Rwanda, the most Catholic country in Africa, where priests and nuns and bishops are on trial, for inciting from their pulpits and on the Church’s radio stations and newspapers, the massacre of their brothers and sisters. Staying in Africa, I think it will one day be admitted with shame that it might have been in error to say that AIDS is bad as a disease, very bad, but not quite as bad as condoms are bad, or not as immoral in the same way. I say it in the presence of His Grace, and I say it to his face, the teachings of his church are responsible for the death and suffering and misery of his brother and sister Africans, and he should apologise for it, he should show some shame. For condemning my friend Stephen Fry for his nature, for saying you couldn’t be a member of our church, you’re born in sin. He’s not being condemned for what he does, he’s being condemned for what he is. You’re a child made in the image of God – oh no, you’re not, you’re a faggot, and you can’t join our church and you can’t go to heaven. This is disgraceful, it’s inhuman, it’s obscene, and it comes from a clutch of hysterical, sinister virgins, who’ve already betrayed their charge in the children of their own church. For shame! For shame!

I don’t wish any ill on any fellow primate or mammal of mine, so I don’t at all look forward to the death of Joseph Ratzinger, I don’t, or any other bloke, not really, except for one tiny reason which I ought to confess and share with you. When he dies, there’s quite a long interval till the conclave can meet, and for that whole time, that whole interval—it is a delicious, lucid interlude—there isn’t anyone on Earth who claims to be infallible. Isn’t that nice? All I think, all I want to propose in closing is this: that if the human species is to rise to the full height that’s demanded by its dignity, and by its intelligence, we must all of us move to a state of affairs, where that condition is permanent, and I think we should get on with it. Okay, thank you for having me.
Cheers for that. But truth be told, I don't actually care what Hitchens had to say, as it has nothing to do with ratskep. And besides, many of us think Hitchens is a dick.
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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:52 pm

Robert_S wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Robert_S wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
LaMont Cranston wrote:rEvolutionist, I don't recall anybody portraying the mods at ratskep (other than you, of course) as an "evil bunch of anti-free speech dictators." However, you can put me down for uptight, close-minded, rigid, irrational and rather cowardly.
Cowardly?!? FFS. :roll:
I think that many of us think that strong people do not need to cower from controversial viewpoints and differing opinions. In fact, I think that strong people welcome the opportunities to substantiate, as best as they can, their ideas, and welcome chances to justify what they believe and how they came to believe what they do.
You're right. We're all so weak over there. Thanks for setting us straight.
As was pointed out earlier in this thread, the rule against group attacks came about because the users demanded it.
FIFY. :coffee:
This is a nice thread to tell the story from your perspective, should you want to.
That's what I've been doing. But it seems some people would prefer to peddle/believe a sensationalist twist on the reality of ratskep. I don't know what else I can add to what I've said already. I see Gallstones doesn't seem to be around anymore, so there's little reason to hang around. Listening to a bunch of people who barely ever posted over there tell me how fucked ratskep is, is kinda leaving a sour taste in my mouth.
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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:55 pm

LaMont Cranston wrote:rEvolutionist, Actually I didn't say that all of the folks at ratskep are weak, and you have no chance of attributing those words to me. However, your attempts to attribute words like that to myself and others speak volumes about your own defensiveness and the weakness of your arguments.

I suspect that the folks who started ratskep were more than a bit shell-shocked at the meltdown of Dawkins as a person and RDF as a forum. Because some of those folks felt that way, they were (and apparently still are) quick to hit the old panic button. I haven't followed the goings on at ratskep much, but I'm under the impression that Kiki, Gallstones and a number of others who I know to be good people have run into some problems with the rigid, uptight atmosphere that exists at ratskep.

Yes, weak people think they have to cower and be protected from controversial and emotionally charged ideas and viewpoints. More than that, they think that it is their self-appointed duty to protect others from those same things, whether or not those others have asked for that protection.
[my bold]

Who are these "weak people" if not us over at Ratskep? :ask: Are you seriously trying to say that you aren't inferring that we are weak over there? Fuck me there's some hyprebole going on here.
Last edited by pErvinalia on Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:59 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Robert_S wrote:I don't know, but I have a feeling that the reason those rules are in place was little to do with cowardice and a great deal to do with being fed up with trolls spamming up the boards.
If you define "troll" to mean "someone the moderator persoally disagrees with", perhaps.
Yes, that's right Warren, it's all a big conspiracy. :roll: You do understand that no single moderator ever sanctions/bans anyone, right? They all confer and discuss the most appropriate action ranging from none to sanction. And for the nth time, people get plenty of warnings to change their behaviour, and there are plenty of us, including you, who manage to post without getting suspended for trolling. When are you going to understand that a "troll" isn't someone the moderators don't like, but someone who constantly derails threads?
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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:06 pm

LaMont Cranston wrote:Imagination Theory, Thank you for posting that stuff. I've always liked Kiki going back to our days on RDF, and I have an even higher opinion of her now. The fact that she is that up-in-your-face and fiery makes her all the more likeable to me.

It took me awhile to get next to Gallstones, but I fully believe that she is another strong, no bullshit kind of person who has a genuine appreciation of beauty, nature and a lot of other things.

Yes, the people at ratskep have gotten rid of some of us shit-stirrers, and I think that ratskep is all the poorer and much duller for it. I don't expect this to happen, but I think that if the mods at ratskep really had balls, they'd issue apologies to those of us they found too difficult to deal with and welcome us back with open arms.
:funny: WTF?!?
Of course, it would take strong people to do something like that...
Well let's see how open to free-speech you are here eh? You're a fucking slimy spineless bastard with your weak as piss passive-aggressive quips. It's gutless wankers like you that I'm glad we get rid of over there. Why don't you grow a set and stop pussy footing around?

Oh, and by the way, when I get a warning for this post, I expect that you will get one too for your personal attack on me above. :td:
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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:06 pm

Imagination Theory wrote:
LaMont Cranston wrote:Imagination Theory, Thank you for posting that stuff. I've always liked Kiki going back to our days on RDF, and I have an even higher opinion of her now. The fact that she is that up-in-your-face and fiery makes her all the more likeable to me.

It took me awhile to get next to Gallstones, but I fully believe that she is another strong, no bullshit kind of person who has a genuine appreciation of beauty, nature and a lot of other things.

Yes, the people at ratskep have gotten rid of some of us shit-stirrers, and I think that ratskep is all the poorer and much duller for it. I don't expect this to happen, but I think that if the mods at ratskep really had balls, they'd issue apologies to those of us they found too difficult to deal with and welcome us back with open arms. Of course, it would take strong people to do something like that...

I don't know either of them, but I'm sure they are likable and great people. Definitely. They did break the FUA though, which they agreed to follow when they signed up. It isn't as if the Mods are out to get them.

If they or others want the rules changed they and all members can discuss it. However until they are changed all members must follow the current rules or face the consequences.


You think it is duller but I think it is better. I guess that is why I am more over there and you more over here. *Shrugs*

I'm sorry, but could you give me your definition of "strong"?
:clap:
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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:07 pm

Gertie wrote:Even I'm bored shitless of this thread now.

Any chance of some decent drama folks, a proper inter-forum shitstorm preferably? :pop:
See above. Glad to oblige.... :twisted:
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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by Trolldor » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:10 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:Cheers for that. But truth be told, I don't actually care what Hitchens had to say, as it has nothing to do with ratskep. And besides, many of us think Hitchens is a dick.
Firstly, it was an example and has a lot to do with this discussion.

By banning attacks on ideologies, and on groups, and movements, you've effectively removed any passionate argumentation because all of a sudden nobody is allowed an opinion on anything unless it's complimentary. And that ban on attacks must be applied universally. Anybody who degrades pedophiles as Hitchens did would have to be warned. They're attacking a group of people in a way which would cause offence.


Secondly, that you believe your dislike of him means anything at all only highlights a major problem.
Oh, and by the way, when I get a warning for this post, I expect that you will get one too for your personal attack on me above. :td:
If there was a personal attack, all you have to do is report the offending post.
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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by kiki5711 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:12 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
LaMont Cranston wrote:Imagination Theory, Thank you for posting that stuff. I've always liked Kiki going back to our days on RDF, and I have an even higher opinion of her now. The fact that she is that up-in-your-face and fiery makes her all the more likeable to me.

It took me awhile to get next to Gallstones, but I fully believe that she is another strong, no bullshit kind of person who has a genuine appreciation of beauty, nature and a lot of other things.

Yes, the people at ratskep have gotten rid of some of us shit-stirrers, and I think that ratskep is all the poorer and much duller for it. I don't expect this to happen, but I think that if the mods at ratskep really had balls, they'd issue apologies to those of us they found too difficult to deal with and welcome us back with open arms.
:funny: WTF?!?
Of course, it would take strong people to do something like that...
Well let's see how open to free-speech you are here eh? You're a fucking slimy spineless bastard with your weak as piss passive-aggressive quips. It's gutless wankers like you that I'm glad we get rid of over there. Why don't you grow a set and stop pussy footing around?

Oh, and by the way, when I get a warning for this post, I expect that you will get one too for your personal attack on me above. :td:
Your true colors have finally come out. Lamont is a person of quality you'll never be.

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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:14 pm

Imagination Theory wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Imagination Theory wrote:Yeah, I thought so. It is still against the rules though. You didn't think it was unfair of them to do, did you?
I think so, even though I'm not a big fan of kiki's posts. Kiki was basically baited into breaking the rules by one of the people against whom the moderators do not enforce the rules. If the moderators there enforced the rules uniformly, it would be a different situation, but using the rules as a weapon to get rid of people they don't like while people they do like are allowed to ignore the rules without consequences - yes, that's unfair.
That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Could you back it up?

I've been baited before, I just ignored it though and followed the FUA (which I agreed to do).

So Kiki was "basically" baited. She broke the rules. If she really wanted to say something back she could have PM'd the person who "basically" baited her. She wanted to say that on purpose though, she just write that above. And you're trying to tie the blame with another member and the Mods. Right. :what:
Exactly. The overriding theme from the "complaints" in this thread and the ones back on RS is that it's "not my fault, someone else is to blame". People just need to start taking some personal responsibility. And the silly thing is that Seth, the suspended poster who Gallstones is all worked up over, bleats on and on about personal responsibility, yet he has sooked that it wasn't his fault he got banned from RDF, and now GS and Warren are basically trying to say that it wasn't his fault that he got a 6-month suspension from RS. Pulease.
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Re: A Possible Change In The Rules - RatSkep tangent

Post by Trolldor » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:15 pm

kiki5711 wrote:
Your true colors have finally come out. Lamont is a person of quality you'll never be.

:what:
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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