The Trump Pandemic

[JimC]

Is there a possibility that some of the wilder street protests might actually increase the vote for Trump?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-24/ ... s/12483800

After all that's happened this year, it's hard to know if the electorate will buy Trump's law and order pitch.

But every time a mob pulls down a statue, throws rocks at police or smashes up a building, it'll sound a bit more credible.

[pErvinalia]

Yeah, that's what I'm worried about. Although, surely most of the law and order folks were probably voting republican anyway.

[Tyrannical]

Is there a possibility that some of the wilder street protests might actually increase the vote for Trump?

Only if they inconvenience people that are employed.

[rainbow]

Is there a possibility that some of the wilder street protests might actually increase the vote for Trump?

Only if they inconvenience people that are employed.

...just the sort of comment that will get you an invite to a re-education camp, come the Revolution.
I suggest that you start learning the selected sayings of Chairman Bernie, before it's too late.

[rainbow]

Between now and November, surely the most important choices for anti-Trump forces are to decide what words and actions will have the greatest chance of reducing the vote for Trump, and increasing the vote for Biden. All other more theoretical stuff is surely moot until then...

Unite behind the slogan: "Get out and Vote to end the Madness"

[JimC]

Yeah, that's what I'm worried about. Although, surely most of the law and order folks were probably voting republican anyway.

The issue is with the word "most". There are surely some undecided voters. One hopes that Trump idiocy will tip them one way, but either a Biden stumble or fear over law and order issues may push them the other...

[Sean Hayden]

Who's still undecided?

[pErvinalia]

Yer mum.

[JimC]

Who's still undecided?

I'm not sure of any figures that show exactly how many, but surely, even in an ultra-divided US, there are some potential voters who are not yet absolutely pro or anti Trump...

[Sean Hayden]

I was only pretending to be surprised. I'm sure you're right.

[pErvinalia]

Yer mum.

[Brian Peacock]

Well, if I happen to come across some nice Tucker Carlson fans, I'll try to be friendly, ok?

Hmm. Not really sure where that came from mate - particularly given...

I believe that when you read something like that you think I'm telling you we need to pander to or accommodate racism, hate-speech, and other forms of bigotry. I'm not. I saying that if we, as leftists progressives ... <see above> ...

I don't think you're paying attention Seabass.

Really? 'Cause I kind of feel like you're the one not paying attention, Monsieur Peacock.

I understand that. You've been annoyed with me for months now for saying I don't think that berating Trumpists is very productive and that it risks exacerbating, deepening, entrenching the kind of community divisions that fundamentally concern you, but I've never said you don't have good cause to be frustrated, angry and fearful because I think those feelings are not just understandable in the present circumstances, but entirely justifiable. What I'm trying to do is explain my thoughts and offer some broader contexts and critique about the first part of the previous sentence. What you seem to take from that is that I'm telling you off for being frustrated, angry and fearful for the future.

That's what I mean when I say I don't think you're paying attention, and yet I think that's understandable too. You're living in a particularly stressful society at a particularly stressful time, and I also understand how prolonged stress quickly becomes all-consuming, that psychologically and neurochemically it quickly becomes a normalising filter, a dependency, through which we relate to our circumstances, experiences and interactions in and with the world. We call this 'coping' but it isn't really - it's traumatising.

* * *

...
You seem to think that I cease to exist when I'm not griping about Trump on the internet. I only spend on average, what, maybe 5-10 minutes a day griping about Trump? I can spew the vituperative opprobrium AND do other stuff in addition to that. I don't have to limit myself to only one or the other.

I didn't suggest that you did or that you should. So what are you doing about the things that are "keeping Whiteness and Christianity at the top of the social order [and] keeping brown people out and black people down"?

Well, I've attended various protests over the years, including recent BLM protests here in San Diego. I've given money to various civil rights organizations over the years, including, but not limited to, ACLU, NAACP, and RAICES. During the 2018 primaries, we donated to the campaigns of Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and Jay Inslee. We try to support good news organizations either through subscriptions or donations.

Is that enough Brian? Have I passed the test? Am I now allowed to say mean stuff on the internet about the people want to deport me and half my family and terrorize and torture brown people, women, and gays? Do you ever make such demands of conservatives, or only of people who say mean things about conservatives?

The primary objective of any reasonably-minded, concerned, compassionate US citizen today is to get Trump out of office and to over-turn the Repugs strangle-hold on the democratic machinery. That's a given. However, I think the system is fundamentally broken and while Biden and a Democratic House is better than the alternative simply putting different people in the big chairs isn't going to significantly change US social, economic, or political life for the overwhelming majority of people. Democracy has always worked best when government operates in the broadest interest of the broadest number of people in a bottom-up way, and what we have at the moment is a nominally democratic system that is increasingly tightly managed in the narrow interests of a small number of people in a top-down way. While the Democrats are better than the alternative I cannot see them doing anything to change the paradigm.

Trump has been a radicalising force in so many ways for so many people - not just in the US - and those whose disaffection, resentment, fears have been radicalised towards the intra-class battleground of the 'culture war', ethno-centric nationalism, a degradation of the rights of others (not understanding that they degrade their own rights in the process) and assumptions about the supposed benefits of an authoritarian-minded neo-liberal state, are not going to just blow away on the wind. Similarly, those who have been radicalised for an equality of rights and opportunity for all, inclusiveness and multiculturalism, social and environmental justice etc are not going to have their concerns addressed just by voting Democratic - and nor are they going to be relieved of the stresses and trauma of having to share society with those who have been primed-and-triggered over many years to consider the idea of a more democratically balanced, compassionate, tolerant, equal, inclusive and just society as somehow fundamentally detrimental to their personal well-being.

It's in this context that I say that using our frustration and anger as a motivating force, and putting our principles and ideas directly into action in the community, for the good of the community, and through that developing a wider, inclusive movement for positive change, is a practical and productive response to the circumstance we leftist progressives find ourselves and society currently having to endure.

Now I know that I come across as rather didactic when I talk about these kinds of things, but even though I accept that you might take me for being a bit condescending I'm actually quite sincere. We might disagree about our reading of circumstances, our interpretation of the facts, or the details, but there's no need for us to fall out. We are not enemies Seabass: we're actually allies and people like you and me, for all our quirks and peculiarities, need each other now more than ever - and probably will do for some years to come.

[Brian Peacock]

Don't mind Brian. He's a theoretical Marxist. If he was a real one he'd be out there punching on with the cops and right wingers..

I remember when Cunt tried suggesting that we couldn't really criticise the police because we weren't brave enough to take on that role. I laughed then as I'm laughing now. Your Troll-fu is puny grasshopper

Seriously, the state has a monopoly on the use of violence and I don't think you can (or it's even sensible to attempt to) out-violence it. That's a hypothesis that's been tested enough to count as not just a workable Ttheory but as a Law by now.

[pErvinalia]

You wait and see. Any day now the militias are going to rise up and put a stop to the tyrannical Trump government. It's the moment they've always talked about.

[Seabass]

You've been annoyed with me for months now

Eh? No I haven't. I've been under the impression that you and others have been annoyed with me for my incessant anti-Trump posting.

for saying I don't think that berating Trumpists is very productive

For the umpteenth time, I'm not trying to to convert anyone. Not on Rationalia.com, anyway. Who on this forum could I possibly convert? Have you never had to blow off steam?



Regarding your view that putting Dems in office is worthless, I have to strenuously disagree with you. We only have two choices: the retrograde policies and cruelty, racism, and christofascism of the Republicans, or slow progress with the Dems. Activism has its place, but the ultimate goal of activism to get the laws changed. The Civil Rights movement of the 60s would have been worthless if it wasn't followed by the Civil Rights Act.

Does that mean I think the Dems are perfect? No. Do I think they are infallible? No. Do I think they are the bee's knees and the cat's pajamas? Of course not. But they are unfortunately the only viable option for Americans who aren't monstrous Christians or white nationalists. No, they won't fix everything overnight, but over time, you keep chipping away and things get better for people. That's all anyone can reasonably hope for in this fucked up place.