Our Dear Friends

[Hermit]

Having liberated Afghanistan's and Iraq's oppressed masses, we seem to have run out of countries to free. Saudi Arabia can never be considered to be socially and politically oppressive, can it? If it was particularly unjust to women why is half of its population female? I mean, wouldn't they just move out if they did not like living there? Oh, that's right; they can't move. Not even to a hospital. Women driving means prostitution, pornography, homosexuality and divorce: Saudi.

Then there is Egypt. Now that Mubarak has been toppled, it's the land of milk and honey. For men. Female student’s naked posts tear the veil from face of secular Egypt. Aliaa Magda Elmahdy's blog entry has attracted close to three million views in four weeks. Most of the comments are negative. Even her country's so called liberals are disassociating themselves from her. Whatever government emerges after the upcoming elections, Egypt's future looks rosy. Nothing to worry about. With the possible exceptions of Pakistan and Iraq, the world police has Islamic oppression in check all over the world.

[/dummyspit]

[Schneibster]

Turkey might make you feel better. They got past the military thing OK.

I suspect the Egyptian military means to follow their example. I think it's a pretty good one.

Commerce and acculturation will win out in the long run; the Enlightenment proved that.

The other choice is to kill all the ones who are devoted to the old ways. I've studied a lot of history and I've never seen that work.

In science you usually have to wait them out.

[hadespussercats]

Having liberated Afghanistan's and Iraq's oppressed masses, we seem to have run out of countries to free. Saudi Arabia can never be considered to be socially and politically oppressive, can it? If it was particularly unjust to women why is half of its population female? I mean, wouldn't they just move out if they did not like living there? Oh, that's right; they can't move. Not even to a hospital. Women driving means prostitution, pornography, homosexuality and divorce: Saudi.

Then there is Egypt. Now that Mubarak has been toppled, it's the land of milk and honey. For men. Female student’s naked posts tear the veil from face of secular Egypt. Aliaa Magda Elmahdy's blog entry has attracted close to three million views in four weeks. Most of the comments are negative. Even her country's so called liberals are disassociating themselves from her. Whatever government emerges after the upcoming elections, Egypt's future looks rosy. Nothing to worry about. With the possible exceptions of Pakistan and Iraq, the world police has Islamic oppression in check all over the world.

[/dummyspit]

Did we really liberate Afghanistan and Iraq's oppressed masses? I know we trashed the place, but are they now free?

I can't tell if that part was meant to be sardonic.

Can social media free us all? Blogging our way to emancipation?

[Hermit]

Did we really liberate Afghanistan and Iraq's oppressed masses? I know we trashed the place, but are they now free?

I can't tell if that part was meant to be sardonic.

Can social media free us all? Blogging our way to emancipation?

Good questions. Yes, I was being sardonic. The social media are a very minor factor contributing to change, but I think they are of some consequence, especially since the internet went mainstream. In pre-internet times social media hastened the end of the Vietnam war and South Africa's apartheid regime. Mostly, factors for change are not really under our control. Schneibster is right with his observation that "Commerce and acculturation will win out in the long run; the Enlightenment proved that." What infuriates me, though, is that more often than not "liberation" is a noble sounding label to disguise actions motivated by cynical Realpolitik. Why have we not "liberated" Pakistan? Or Somalia the way we have "liberated" Afghanistan and Iraq?

[JimC]

Did we really liberate Afghanistan and Iraq's oppressed masses? I know we trashed the place, but are they now free?

I can't tell if that part was meant to be sardonic.

Can social media free us all? Blogging our way to emancipation?

Good questions. Yes, I was being sardonic. The social media are a very minor factor contributing to change, but I think they are of some consequence, especially since the internet went mainstream. In pre-internet times social media hastened the end of the Vietnam war and South Africa's apartheid regime. Mostly, factors for change are not really under our control. Schneibster is right with his observation that "Commerce and acculturation will win out in the long run; the Enlightenment proved that." What infuriates me, though, is that more often than not "liberation" is a noble sounding label to disguise actions motivated by cynical Realpolitik. Why have we not "liberated" Pakistan? Or Somalia the way we have "liberated" Afghanistan and Iraq?

I agree in the main, but your last point is unrealistic. Afghanistan was not about liberating people from an opressive Taliban regime (allthough it provides good spin at times), but attacking on a regime which sponsored and assisted massive terrorist attacks against the west, and was quite open about it.

My cynical side says that, in the near to medium term, when the west pulls out and the current corrupt regime is toppled by a resurgent Taliban, they will make the wise move of making it very clear that they will have nothing more to do with terrorist attacks against the west outside of their own country. They will be left alone to fester in their unpleasant, mysogynist fairyland...

[hadespussercats]

Did we really liberate Afghanistan and Iraq's oppressed masses? I know we trashed the place, but are they now free?

I can't tell if that part was meant to be sardonic.

Can social media free us all? Blogging our way to emancipation?

Good questions. Yes, I was being sardonic. The social media are a very minor factor contributing to change, but I think they are of some consequence, especially since the internet went mainstream. In pre-internet times social media hastened the end of the Vietnam war and South Africa's apartheid regime. Mostly, factors for change are not really under our control. Schneibster is right with his observation that "Commerce and acculturation will win out in the long run; the Enlightenment proved that." What infuriates me, though, is that more often than not "liberation" is a noble sounding label to disguise actions motivated by cynical Realpolitik. Why have we not "liberated" Pakistan? Or Somalia the way we have "liberated" Afghanistan and Iraq?

Do Pakistan or Somalia have oil?

My sense as an ignorant US citizen is that we were never liberating Afghanistan-- we were punishing them for harboring Al Quaeda. Plus maybe some carryover of the cold war hijinx played out there by the US incognito-- but I don't really understand what that was about, either.

[Gawd]

Did we really liberate Afghanistan and Iraq's oppressed masses? I know we trashed the place, but are they now free?

I can't tell if that part was meant to be sardonic.

Can social media free us all? Blogging our way to emancipation?

Good questions. Yes, I was being sardonic. The social media are a very minor factor contributing to change, but I think they are of some consequence, especially since the internet went mainstream. In pre-internet times social media hastened the end of the Vietnam war and South Africa's apartheid regime. Mostly, factors for change are not really under our control. Schneibster is right with his observation that "Commerce and acculturation will win out in the long run; the Enlightenment proved that." What infuriates me, though, is that more often than not "liberation" is a noble sounding label to disguise actions motivated by cynical Realpolitik. Why have we not "liberated" Pakistan? Or Somalia the way we have "liberated" Afghanistan and Iraq?

Do Pakistan or Somalia have oil?

My sense as an ignorant US citizen is that we were never liberating Afghanistan-- we were punishing them for harboring Al Quaeda. Plus maybe some carryover of the cold war hijinx played out there by the US incognito-- but I don't really understand what that was about, either.

If punishment for aiding Al Quaeda is really the case, the the US would have bombed Saudi Arabia instead.

[JimC]

Did we really liberate Afghanistan and Iraq's oppressed masses? I know we trashed the place, but are they now free?

I can't tell if that part was meant to be sardonic.

Can social media free us all? Blogging our way to emancipation?

Good questions. Yes, I was being sardonic. The social media are a very minor factor contributing to change, but I think they are of some consequence, especially since the internet went mainstream. In pre-internet times social media hastened the end of the Vietnam war and South Africa's apartheid regime. Mostly, factors for change are not really under our control. Schneibster is right with his observation that "Commerce and acculturation will win out in the long run; the Enlightenment proved that." What infuriates me, though, is that more often than not "liberation" is a noble sounding label to disguise actions motivated by cynical Realpolitik. Why have we not "liberated" Pakistan? Or Somalia the way we have "liberated" Afghanistan and Iraq?

Do Pakistan or Somalia have oil?

My sense as an ignorant US citizen is that we were never liberating Afghanistan-- we were punishing them for harboring Al Quaeda. Plus maybe some carryover of the cold war hijinx played out there by the US incognito-- but I don't really understand what that was about, either.

If punishment for aiding Al Quaeda is really the case, the the US would have bombed Saudi Arabia instead.

Fair point in many ways, Gawd, but it ignores the Realpolitik of the situation in terms of regional alliances and oil...

[hadespussercats]

Did we really liberate Afghanistan and Iraq's oppressed masses? I know we trashed the place, but are they now free?

I can't tell if that part was meant to be sardonic.

Can social media free us all? Blogging our way to emancipation?

Good questions. Yes, I was being sardonic. The social media are a very minor factor contributing to change, but I think they are of some consequence, especially since the internet went mainstream. In pre-internet times social media hastened the end of the Vietnam war and South Africa's apartheid regime. Mostly, factors for change are not really under our control. Schneibster is right with his observation that "Commerce and acculturation will win out in the long run; the Enlightenment proved that." What infuriates me, though, is that more often than not "liberation" is a noble sounding label to disguise actions motivated by cynical Realpolitik. Why have we not "liberated" Pakistan? Or Somalia the way we have "liberated" Afghanistan and Iraq?

Do Pakistan or Somalia have oil?

My sense as an ignorant US citizen is that we were never liberating Afghanistan-- we were punishing them for harboring Al Quaeda. Plus maybe some carryover of the cold war hijinx played out there by the US incognito-- but I don't really understand what that was about, either.

If punishment for aiding Al Quaeda is really the case, the the US would have bombed Saudi Arabia instead.

Fair point in many ways, Gawd, but it ignores the Realpolitik of the situation in terms of regional alliances and oil...

Gawd and JimC-- this is an exchange I've heard often since 2001. I just wish I knew more about the underpinnings. Does it all really come down to oil, and the rest is head-nodding and diversionary tactics?

[JimC]

^^^^^^

It is certainly part of the equation, but not the whole deal, IMO...

The US has always played the alliance game with great fervour. Sometimes it works, sometimes it is ethical, sometimes it is a deal with the devil, but the Great Game must continue... (think Chile...)

[Warren Dew]

Then there is Egypt. Now that Mubarak has been toppled, it's the land of milk and honey. For men. Female student’s naked posts tear the veil from face of secular Egypt. Aliaa Magda Elmahdy's blog entry has attracted close to three million views in four weeks. Most of the comments are negative. Even her country's so called liberals are disassociating themselves from her.

As I pointed out at the time, the driving force behind the "Arab Spring" was never a liberal one. Sure there were some liberals participating, but it didn't become powerful until the Islamic fundamentalists threw their weight behind it, scheduling protests after Friday prayers.

[JimC]

Then there is Egypt. Now that Mubarak has been toppled, it's the land of milk and honey. For men. Female student’s naked posts tear the veil from face of secular Egypt. Aliaa Magda Elmahdy's blog entry has attracted close to three million views in four weeks. Most of the comments are negative. Even her country's so called liberals are disassociating themselves from her.

As I pointed out at the time, the driving force behind the "Arab Spring" was never a liberal one. Sure there were some liberals participating, but it didn't become powerful until the Islamic fundamentalists threw their weight behind it, scheduling protests after Friday prayers.

I agree, but the liberal youth factions and others are still players. The fundamentalists are not the automatic winners, just possible ones...

[Warren Dew]

Gawd and JimC-- this is an exchange I've heard often since 2001. I just wish I knew more about the underpinnings. Does it all really come down to oil, and the rest is head-nodding and diversionary tactics?

The financing for Al Qaeda came largely from individual Saudis, but on the other hand, there were more Al Qaeda training areas in Afghanistan. The U.S. did actually work on the money half of the equation too, but through the banking system rather than through bombs - arguably a more effective solution.

Of course, if you want to know whether it's all about the oil, peeling it back one layer demonstrates it is not. The reason Arab money was being given to Al Qaeda was in protest of Israel's apartheid policies against the Palestinians, which the U.S. was seen as supporting - fundamentally a human rights issue, not an oil issue. Oil just meant that the Arabs had money to give.

[Warren Dew]

Then there is Egypt. Now that Mubarak has been toppled, it's the land of milk and honey. For men. Female student’s naked posts tear the veil from face of secular Egypt. Aliaa Magda Elmahdy's blog entry has attracted close to three million views in four weeks. Most of the comments are negative. Even her country's so called liberals are disassociating themselves from her.

As I pointed out at the time, the driving force behind the "Arab Spring" was never a liberal one. Sure there were some liberals participating, but it didn't become powerful until the Islamic fundamentalists threw their weight behind it, scheduling protests after Friday prayers.

I agree, but the liberal youth factions and others are still players. The fundamentalists are not the automatic winners, just possible ones...

Seraph's post is pointing out that the "liberal youth factions" are joining up with the fundamentalists in oppressing women. What we're seeing is a fundamentalist victory in progress.

[JimC]

Then there is Egypt. Now that Mubarak has been toppled, it's the land of milk and honey. For men. Female student’s naked posts tear the veil from face of secular Egypt. Aliaa Magda Elmahdy's blog entry has attracted close to three million views in four weeks. Most of the comments are negative. Even her country's so called liberals are disassociating themselves from her.

As I pointed out at the time, the driving force behind the "Arab Spring" was never a liberal one. Sure there were some liberals participating, but it didn't become powerful until the Islamic fundamentalists threw their weight behind it, scheduling protests after Friday prayers.

I agree, but the liberal youth factions and others are still players. The fundamentalists are not the automatic winners, just possible ones...

Seraph's post is pointing out that the "liberal youth factions" are joining up with the fundamentalists in oppressing women. What we're seeing is a fundamentalist victory in progress.

Perhaps what they are doing is recognising that Egypt is not quite ready for naked Egyptian girls on the internet, and rushing to demonstrate that they are not absurdly out of touch with the Zeitgeist...

(I hasten to add that Egypt should be ready for naked Egyptian girls on the internet...)