On RatZ, what do the words "the catholic church" mean?

[Ronja]

It occurred to me that the term / concept may be ambiguous and depend on the reader: when you read "the catholic church" (or "the catlicker church" or "the holy motherfucker church") here on RatZ (and/or on another atheist / freethinker / skeptic site), what entity do you assume that the writer means?


And if you wish to analyze further: when you read "the Catholic Church" or "the Holy Mother Church" somewhere that is not an atheist / freethinker / skeptic site, do you assume that the writer means a different entity than what you assumed in the case described above? Why / why not?

[Gallstones]

I always assume it means the current Roman Catholic Church connected to the Vatican and under the Pope.

[MiM]

It depends, but mostly either the current or historical organisation and hierarchy. I have never been able to fathom any church as consisting of genuine people

[Rum]

Took some reading that poll!

I went for somewhere more or less in the middle.

It has changed a lot in really quite a short time. When I was a kid our neighbours were old fashioned southern Irish catholics and the mom of the kids I was sort of friendly with would tell us on a daily basis what saints she was going to pray for to get better exam results, good health, better behaved children..etc.. She actually worshiped, I realised later, a mid 2oth century version of the Roman pantheon of gods, which of course, the church hijacked early on.

[Ronja]

It depends, but mostly either the current or historical organisation and hierarchy. I have never been able to fathom any church as consisting of genuine people

Funny I need to make a poll on RatZ to find out this about you. I guess our views have always been so similar on that point that there has been no need to even become aware...

"Church" implies the organization to me - the words "catholics" on the other hand associates to the ordinary "grassroots" members - the more active ones, or at least those who identify as (somewhat) believing catholics.

[Ronja]

Rum that ex-neighbor of yours - I suddenly feel very unsophisticated and peripheral. I've never even heard of anyone like that here in the northern stronghold of lukewarm lutheranism.

[apophenia]

I lean towards it meaning the current hierarchy as that is its most common meaning where I encounter it. However, I'm thoroughly post-modern in believing that words acquire meaning through use, beginning amorphous and ambiguous, and becoming more specific and refined in the process of discourse or utterance. Thus a word can have many meanings at once when first heard, only gradually paring away or limiting the meaning based on the text. For example, "The toy which was sitting in the hallway by the stairs is missing." The "toy" starts out meaning many possible toys, and only later in the utterance does it acquire specificity. That being said, as noted, we likely rank meanings probabilistically, and since the meaning noted is the most commonly implied meaning in my experience, I assign it higher probability than the others. Though if, say in listening to a debate, as recently, that one of the speakers is using it in a different sense, it doesn't lead me to consider changing my views on what "the Catholic church" means, if that meaning is in the bundle of meanings I have previously acquired — I'm not suddenly faced with a conflict in which only one meaning must win — both can cohabitate peacefully, with lesser meanings being brought forward through usage.

(ETA: I suspect other things besides probability, such as beliefs, politics, and so on go in to sorting usage.)

[Thinking Aloud]

The current and historical organisation - the "employees, directors, and CEO" if you like. I don't tend to include its "members/shareholders" when using the term - I'd probably say "the church and its members" or use the term "catholics" for those (and I was one). Whether it's historical or current will depend on context. A lot of the arguments I've seen of late on Ratz seem to be because one party is referring to the church as it is today, while the other is referring to the church as it was at some point in the past.

[Svartalf]

Took some reading that poll!

I went for somewhere more or less in the middle.

It has changed a lot in really quite a short time. When I was a kid our neighbours were old fashioned southern Irish catholics and the mom of the kids I was sort of friendly with would tell us on a daily basis what saints she was going to pray for to get better exam results, good health, better behaved children..etc.. She actually worshiped, I realised later, a mid 2oth century version of the Roman pantheon of gods, which of course, the church hijacked early on.

So, will you sacrifice a rooster to Anus, god of arseholes, or burn a candle to St Thomas patron of the same?

[amused]

The organization only, past and present. People who attend are the customers.

[Audley Strange]

I agree with Amused mostly, though it depends on context, someone could consider the flock part of the machine.

[Ronja]

Thanks everyone who has voted and/or answered thus far. The sample is not very big yet (26 votes), but I am amazed that only 23 % of those votes explicitly include ANY lay members at all, i.e. ordinary catholics, and 46 % specify the meaning of "the catholic church" as the official organization / hierarchy of them who make their living by working for or living within the catholic church.

I thought that I was in the minority when I mean the organization & hierarchy (not the ordinary people-on-the-street catholics) when I use the word "church" - it will be interesting to see how the numbers develop when/if more people vote.

[Animavore]

Where is the "Shower of bastards who caused untold suffering to Ireland through their medieval 'morals'" option?

[Ronja]

"Something else (please elaborate)" - which you just did. Thank you! (and FWIW for the situation in Ireland. It must be painful in more ways than I can imagine)

[Animavore]

"Something else (please elaborate)" - which you just did. Thank you! (and FWIW for the situation in Ireland. It must be painful in more ways than I can imagine)

Not for me, 'cause I'm an atheist but definately for the many Catholics who feel betrayal, shame and ruin.