Dying for a lie

[uair]

Hello,
I'm new to the forum and this is my first post.
Even though I googled for a while, I was unable to find a single case of a person (or persons) that died for an idea he (or she or they) considered to be false. It seems unlikely to find such a case, but human psychology is full of surprises. Consider the following: someone could die for something he knew to be false if he thinks that his death will help an ultimate cause.

Saludos

[stripes4]

Hi there.
I think someone would have to be psychologically disturbed to die for a lie. I think that the reason it hasn't been well noted, is because perhaps they died before he or she could reveal they didn't really believe it.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Check on this, uair. My impression of what you want is something like a soldier under the Nazis who didn't believe in Fascism but wanted to defeat Communism and saw Hitler as the best way to do this?

Right or wrong?

[uair]

Check on this, uair. My impression of what you want is something like a soldier under the Nazis who didn't believe in Fascism but wanted to defeat Communism and saw Hitler as the best way to do this?

Right or wrong?

Not really what I had in mind. A soldier in this situation would be risking his life to defeat communism, not to support fascism; supporting fascism is a side effect, but he probably regards fascism a better choice over communism.
My particular case is Jesus resurrection: I think that the apostles would have risked their lives to defend the idea of Jesus resurrection even if they knew it didn't actually happen. It seems reasonable, at least to me, to suppose people would do such a thing if they thought it would help their cause and ideas. I disagree that this implies that someone is psychologically disturbed.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You'll need to flesh that out somewhat so we have something to wrap our heads around.

[stripes4]

Risked their lives, yes, maybe. you said people that did die for an idea. Being willing to die for one is different.

[drl2]

It's pretty common, when a brutal, unsolved crime gets media attention, for multiple people who didn't commit the crime to come forward and confess that they did. Here in the US those people do so with the knowledge that the death penalty is a real possibility if their confession were to be taken at face value. They do it for fame, or to protect someone else, etc.

As for the reason it's hard to find a specific example of someone giving their life for something they know is a lie: if you were trying to, let's say, spare a loved one's life by confessing to a crime of which you know they're guilty - wouldn't you have a vested interest in not letting anyone know what you were doing? If you got away with your deception, it's a good bet nobody knew about it to record it for the GoogleBot to dredge up.

If this is leading into the old CS Lewis "Lord or Liar" dichotomy... let's just say Lewis overlooked a possibility or two.

[Animavore]

Well of course it's possible to die for something you know to be false. Especially if you didn't think you were going to die. Imagine a Crusader, a pagan, who hears of promises of riches, land and prestige if he joins some Christians for a tour of the Holy Land.

Of course, it would be hard to find such a person unless some obscure, private document was found from the time.

[Robert_S]

It wouldn't surprise me to find that many people have died over things that they once believed in, but were too embarrassed to admit they were wrong about.

[Pensioner]

If you could give me example what you mean by an “ultimate cause” it would help.

[FBM]

A mercenary could fight for an army that has a religious or political ideal. The mercenary may not ascribe to that ideal. He could die just because it was a work-related hazard. I'm thinking of the role the South Korean soldiers played in the Vietnam War. They coudn't give a rat's ass about VN, whether it went communist or not. The rank and file needed the $$ to send home. I imagine a pretty good number of SK 'mercenaries' died over there, fighting for a cause they didn't believe in, just for the money.

[Loki]

Lots of people have died for a lie they believed.

[Hermit]

I was unable to find a single case of a person (or persons) that died for an idea he (or she or they) considered to be false. It seems unlikely to find such a case, but human psychology is full of surprises. Consider the following: someone could die for something he knew to be false if he thinks that his death will help an ultimate cause.

I'd like you to tell us where you trying to go with this.

There is a film about a man who jettisons his identity because he really hated what he had done during his life, and adopts that of someone else. After a few years he has built a reputation of a caring and respected member of his community, but then someone else turns up and reveals that the man whose identity he has assumed was a murderer. Rather than admit that he was an impostor, the man insists maintaining his adopted identity, goes on trial instead for a murder he did not commit, and gets hanged. It's fiction, but it is plausible, and I would not be surprised if something like that has happened in real life.

[uair]

Risked their lives, yes, maybe. you said people that did die for an idea. Being willing to die for one is different.

You are right, but finding an example of someone who actually died for something he knew to be false would settle the case.
I should explain a little bit: when talking about the resurrection with christian people, they quickly dismiss the possibility that the apostles themselves stole the body from the grave, because many of them risked their lives and even died defending the idea that Jesus resurrected. This fact, they say, proves that the apostles themselves believed in the resurrection. I'm not certain about that and, as others did in this thread, it's not hard to imagine situations where people would actually die for a lie (it could help to spread your ideas, it could save someone else's life, etc.). But finding a real example of such behavior would be ideal.
I realize it's hard to find a well documented case, not because it's something rare (maybe it is, maybe it is not), but because you would need some evidence that suggests that the person who died actually did not believed in the ideas that caused his death.
I guess I should continue searching, and if you ever learn that something similar ever happened, please let me know :-)

[Ayaan]

Risked their lives, yes, maybe. you said people that did die for an idea. Being willing to die for one is different.

You are right, but finding an example of someone who actually died for something he knew to be false would settle the case.
I should explain a little bit: when talking about the resurrection with christian people, they quickly dismiss the possibility that the apostles themselves stole the body from the grave, because many of them risked their lives and even died defending the idea that Jesus resurrected. This fact, they say, proves that the apostles themselves believed in the resurrection. I'm not certain about that and, as others did in this thread, it's not hard to imagine situations where people would actually die for a lie (it could help to spread your ideas, it could save someone else's life, etc.). But finding a real example of such behavior would be ideal.
I realize it's hard to find a well documented case, not because it's something rare (maybe it is, maybe it is not), but because you would need some evidence that suggests that the person who died actually did not believed in the ideas that caused his death.
I guess I should continue searching, and if you ever learn that something similar ever happened, please let me know :-)

You' re working from the assumption that events in the New Testament happened as written - or happened at all. First you have to establish that they happened as written and work from there.