Keynesian economic theory

[Chinaski]

I could happily imagine no George Michael or Graham Norton. Just saying...

Yeah. I could do without John Maynard Keynes.

'Scuse me? Keynesian economic theory is extremely important.

[Feck]

Maybe more people should have listened , a little control might have fought of this recent triumph of the free market

[Red Katie]

Double talk. What free market? This recent disaster is the result of government control of the economy. And Keynes has been a disaster for every country that ever touched him.

[Chinaski]

Double talk. What free market? This recent disaster is the result of government control of the economy. And Keynes has been a disaster for every country that ever touched him.

I fail to see how that's true. The Keynesian model combines the freedom of capitalism with the security of a communist market. The recent disaster is a result of a lack of government intervention (deregulations, for example), which is moving away from the Keynesian theory.

[Red Katie]

Double talk. What free market? This recent disaster is the result of government control of the economy. And Keynes has been a disaster for every country that ever touched him.

I fail to see how that's true. The Keynesian model combines the freedom of capitalism with the security of a communist market.

"Security of a communist market?" Worse than double talk. What security? I used to have a partner who was from the Soviet Union. I asked her why she left. She said because she was tired of suffering. I sat in a circle of her ex-pat friends, and when they said, "God bless America," they really, really meant it. There was no security in the communist market, there was no joy, there was no freedom. There was living hand to mouth, day to day, and suffering. Trying to mix a communist market with capitalism is taking poison.

The recent disaster is a result of a lack of government intervention (deregulations, for example), which is moving away from the Keynesian theory.

Seriously, you have to stop getting your news from TV. The recent disaster was caused, largely, by government policies which encouraged banks to make bad real estate loans they wouldn't have normally made.

[Chinaski]

The government wasn't controlling the market the way it should have. By "communist security" all I mean is that the gov't keeps an eye on things and doesn't let them get out of hand, and also ensures that no one gets too poor or too rich. Of course, you need a gov't with the right ideas, or you get the bullshit that happens with a Republican administration.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Soviet Russia was never a communist state. It was an oligarchic dictatorship that used the idea of communism to maintain control over its populace. In fact, I don't think there has ever been a genuine communist state and I don't think there ever could be. People are just to self-centered and greedy to fully embrace such an ideal. In much the same way, there will never be a truly free market, or a true example of any idealised social model - people will always find a way of fucking things up.

I wrote this post elsewhere which I think is relevant here.

[Red Katie]

Soviet Russia was never a communist state. It was an oligarchic dictatorship that used the idea of communism to maintain control over its populace. In fact, I don't think there has ever been a genuine communist state and I don't think there ever could be. People are just to self-centered and greedy to fully embrace such an ideal. In much the same way, there will never be a truly free market, or a true example of any idealised social model - people will always find a way of fucking things up.

I wrote this post elsewhere which I think is relevant here.

Just like a Christian. Always an excuse. Your communist government falls on it's ass? Well, it was never a communist government. We've never had a free market? Oh, free markets are impossible. Your idea of how to run a country doesn't accord with human nature? No, see, the problem is the ingrained evil and impurity of human nature. We're all just worthless. We deserve to be condemned. Save us, Jesus. I mean, Marx.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Soviet Russia was never a communist state. It was an oligarchic dictatorship that used the idea of communism to maintain control over its populace. In fact, I don't think there has ever been a genuine communist state and I don't think there ever could be. People are just to self-centered and greedy to fully embrace such an ideal. In much the same way, there will never be a truly free market, or a true example of any idealised social model - people will always find a way of fucking things up.

I wrote this post elsewhere which I think is relevant here.

Just like a Christian. Always an excuse. Your communist government falls on it's ass? Well, it was never a communist government. We've never had a free market? Oh, free markets are impossible. Your idea of how to run a country doesn't accord with human nature? No, see, the problem is the ingrained evil and impurity of human nature. We're all just worthless. We deserve to be condemned. Save us, Jesus. I mean, Marx.

Am I a communist? Is that what you are trying to imply? Did you actually read what I posted in that link?

All idealised societal models are doomed to failure because mankind is not ideal. Mankind is unpredictable, capricious, prone to acting against his own best interests and, capable of great acts of altruism and selfishness in equal measure. That doesn't make man evil or impure, merely human.

[Red Katie]

All idealised societal models are doomed to failure because mankind is not ideal. Mankind is unpredictable, capricious, prone to acting against his own best interests and, capable of great acts of altruism and selfishness in equal measure. That doesn't make man evil or impure, merely human.

If ideal systems have nothing to do with human nature, what makes them ideal? Capitalism as proposed by Adam Smith, von Mises, von Hayek, and many others (yes, including Ayn Rand) was based on their understanding of human nature, not some other-worldly, pipe-dream "ideal."

Read up. Start with Hayek.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

All idealised societal models are doomed to failure because mankind is not ideal. Mankind is unpredictable, capricious, prone to acting against his own best interests and, capable of great acts of altruism and selfishness in equal measure. That doesn't make man evil or impure, merely human.

If ideal systems have nothing to do with human nature, what makes them ideal? Capitalism as proposed by Adam Smith, von Mises, von Hayek, and many others (yes, including Ayn Rand) was based on their understanding of human nature, not some other-worldly, pipe-dream "ideal."

Read up. Start with Hayek.

You have side-stepped my primary criticism of your post - which was that you accused me of 'worshipping' Marx. I am not a marxist and have never been a marxist. I have never subscribed to any theory of government or economics for the reasons stated above.

Back to topic: I honestly don't believe that it is possible to predict the behaviour of human beings in any but the most general terms. Some systems fail because too much power is given to those at the top, and they abuse that power; some systems fail because not enough power is given to those at the top, and others abuse that. The happy medium is not achieved through any one system but by cycling through various systems and mixtures of systems. Any system/party that remains in power for too long becomes stale, complacent and arrogant.

That is just my onion - there are others and I am not claiming mine is particularly insightful or correct - it is just what I have decided over the years. If anyone actually has come up with the perfect way of herding humans (who are a damn site less cooperative than cats in my experience) I have yet to hear of it.

[eXcommunicate]

Soviet Russia was never a communist state. It was an oligarchic dictatorship that used the idea of communism to maintain control over its populace. In fact, I don't think there has ever been a genuine communist state and I don't think there ever could be. People are just to self-centered and greedy to fully embrace such an ideal. In much the same way, there will never be a truly free market, or a true example of any idealised social model - people will always find a way of fucking things up.

I wrote this post elsewhere which I think is relevant here.

Just like a Christian. Always an excuse. Your communist government falls on it's ass? Well, it was never a communist government. We've never had a free market? Oh, free markets are impossible. Your idea of how to run a country doesn't accord with human nature? No, see, the problem is the ingrained evil and impurity of human nature. We're all just worthless. We deserve to be condemned. Save us, Jesus. I mean, Marx.

Why are you always so unpleasant?

[Red Katie]

Saying anything good about communism is enough to get you on my shit list.

And I'm not always unpleasant. Just some of the time.

[Red Katie]

In this case, actually, I was unpleasant because I felt very much like I was arguing with a fundamentalist about evolution. You're arguing something you don't know much about, and the amount of information I would need to line up to make a coherent argument is just overwhelming. I felt like saying, fuck you, go get an education.

I studied micro- and macroeconomics in my college days. It's execrable bullshit. Keynes specialized in generating arguments to support any economic bullshit any particular government wanted to try. His work consists of bogus mathematics as a smoke screen for specious arguments.

And saying there has never been a true communist government is much like saying that evolution is all chance. Communism has been tried. What happened in the Soviet Union and China is what happens when actual human beings try to apply an "ideal" system.

What has happened in the United States is what happens when all the original platform of the Socialist Party is enacted into law. And also what happens when you get total ignoramuses in charge. Banks never made those kind of loans until it became law that they should make that kind of loan. I really can't be troubled to look up the law, because I'm already working hard enough.

[Chinaski]

I'm studying micro and macroeconomics as well, albeit at a lower level, yet I honestly have never come across anything that indicates that Keynes was a negative influence for the world of Economics.
Anyway, mixed economies are like democracy: they really don't work that well, but they're the best we've got.