Saving the Internet from the NSA

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Seth
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Re: Saving the Internet from the NSA

Post by Seth » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:01 am

piscator wrote:See Seth, a government isn't a retail store engaged in marketeering. It's a flawed rhetorical analogy to denigrate our country and the good things it stands for into some flea market of consumerism. At minimum, it dishonors those who gave their lives to the American Ideal.
That's why I can't buy into the Rush Limbaugh "Needs of the marketplace" line of manure futures.
But by all means feel "free" to engage in whatever sort of rhetorical penis polishing you desire.
Not sure what you mean. I said that private enterprise can do almost anything government can do more efficiently and cost-effectively because of the nature of free market competition dynamics. Governments are typically bloated and inefficient precisely because they do not have to compete and therefor have no impetus to economize. The recognition of this characteristic of government and an attempt to control it is seen in the many and increasing instances of local governments outsourcing public services to private industry that's required to bid on the service and can be dumped for another vendor if the service doesn't meet the required standards at the agreed-upon price. The amounts of taxpayer money that can be saved by doing so is staggering.

The lack of competition in government is exactly why every non-Marxist economist argues that public employee unions should never be allowed to exist because the idea of a public employee negotiating with other public employees about how much of the taxpayer's money public employees are going to get is an inherent conflict of interest that can quite literally destroy a city's economy. The absolute proof of this is found in Detroit, which is declaring bankruptcy because public employees gave other public employees benefits packages that were absolutely unsustainable and they created them in ways that kept City Hall from cutting pensions and benefits when the system started to crash.

Government has a few essential functions that only it can perform properly and safely, but it's a small number of things and the costs involved are always higher than they would be in a free market environment, but we put up with these necessary evils because there is no good free market solution. The military is the prime example. We put up with the waste, fraud and bloat in the military as a necessary evil because managing the military is an essential function of government for many reasons. Hiring mercenaries on a per-job basis would be much, much cheaper and more cost-effective because mercenaries don't fuck around when they go to work because time is money and the competition of the free market induces them to be as brutally efficient as possible in winning the assigned conflict. The reason we don't use mercenaries is social and political, not economic. We want a standing army that is under the control of the People, and we want to be able to dictate the rules of engagement as required by international politics, so that the threat of force can be effectively used as a deterrent without creating a despotic military junta that runs everything for its own benefit.

There are other values that factor in to how we constitute our military other than simple cost effectiveness, and that is true of a few other functions such as law enforcement, fire fighting, emergency services and legislation. But the vast majority of what's done by the federal government today is entirely suitable for private enterprise or for devolving the regulatory authority to the states themselves.

And the point of denigrating central control and central planning is because it does not and cannot work, as we see in nearly everything Obama does, with the shining achievement in failed Marxist policy being Obamacare. No single bureaucrat, or legion of bureaucrats can possibly predict and properly price all of the millions of things the public needs and wants. The beauty of the free market is that it's self-regulating and it's regulated by the billions upon billions of individual decisions and transactions that direct the market towards the needs of the people. To anticipate the favorite canard of liberals, this does NOT mean an "unregulated" market. "Free market" means free of government interference in the buying and selling decisions of consumers and the manufacturing and distribution decisions of businesses. It means not allowing the government to dictate who will sell what at what price to whom or who will be a politically-motivated winner or loser in the economy. It does NOT mean prohibiting the government from exercising its police power to ensure fair trading by punishing theft and fraud and the like.

Go read "The Road to Serfdom" for the definitive debunking of central planning.

You're going to have to explain what "American ideal" you are referring to for me to reply cogently to that point I'm afraid.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Saving the Internet from the NSA

Post by Seth » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:03 am

Blind groper wrote:Seth ignores history.

There have been many times and places where a system closer to his stated wishes held sway. One version is called warlordism.

In fact, the only times and places where human rights were protected were those times and places with strong democratic governments. Look to any other system and see what comes of your rights!
Complete nonsense. You're blatantly and maliciously mischaracterizing what "my system" is in order to erect another strawman, evidently because you are unable to formulate an actual rational rational rebuttal or argument.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Saving the Internet from the NSA

Post by Blind groper » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:56 am

Seth

There is a very true saying : "You never had it so good."

This is true. Western society enjoys a level of wealth, health, long life, and interest in life that has never existed anywhere or anywhen else.

So if you wish to change the system that has delivered so incredibly well on what we need, you had better have something pretty damn special.

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Re: Saving the Internet from the NSA

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:23 am

While it has "delivered", it's failed miserably in long term sustainability. Most of what we have is built on borrowed capital (both natural and financial). Those debts are starting to be called in.
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Re: Saving the Internet from the NSA

Post by Blind groper » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:38 am

To rEvolutionist

Every doomsday prophet for the past 3,000 years has said the same. All that happens is that, every decade, the economy grows, we develop new technologies, and human lifespan increases still more.

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Re: Saving the Internet from the NSA

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:39 am

Yeah, coz infinite growth on a finite planet is really sustainable.

Dunno if you've noticed the state of the planet (and the major economy of the world) lately. :fp:
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Re: Saving the Internet from the NSA

Post by Blind groper » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:34 pm

1. State of the planet.

Globally (from UNfigures) forest cover is increasing as nations plant more than they cut down, with a few exceptions. But overall, very healthy.

Fish stocks increasing (mainly due to over-fishing of large predators). But total fish biomass is growing.

Plant growth faster than before due to warmer conditions and more CO2.

OK, I know there are problems, like global climate change. But your statement, rEvolutionist, was too damn general for me to swallow.

2. World economies.
Average global economic growth is about 3% per year right now. In Africa, it is closer to 5%. Only in the already wealthy west is it below 2%.

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Re: Saving the Internet from the NSA

Post by Blind groper » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:34 pm

1. State of the planet.

Globally (from UNfigures) forest cover is increasing as nations plant more than they cut down, with a few exceptions. But overall, very healthy.

Fish stocks increasing (mainly due to over-fishing of large predators). But total fish biomass is growing.

Plant growth faster than before due to warmer conditions and more CO2.

OK, I know there are problems, like global climate change. But your statement, rEvolutionist, was too damn general for me to swallow.

2. World economies.
Average global economic growth is about 3% per year right now. In Africa, it is closer to 5%. Only in the already wealthy west is it below 2%.

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Let's Play Monoply!

Post by piscator » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:29 pm

Seth wrote:
And the point of denigrating central control and central planning is because it does not and cannot work...
:fp:


Mmmm yeah. Tell that to McDonald's. Or Apple Computer. Or Walmart. Or Exxon. Or any big successful enterprise you've ever heard of...

Private Enterprise=Central Control.

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Re: Let's Play Monoply!

Post by Svartalf » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:45 pm

piscator wrote:
Seth wrote:
And the point of denigrating central control and central planning is because it does not and cannot work...
:fp:


Mmmm yeah. Tell that to McDonald's. Or Apple Computer. Or Walmart. Or Exxon. Or any big successful enterprise you've ever heard of...

Private Enterprise=Central Control.
:fp2:

How has France been working since Napoleon, if not since Louis XIV?
Central control, and private enterprise has worked pretty well too.
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Re: Let's Play Monoply!

Post by piscator » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:12 pm

Svartalf wrote:
piscator wrote:
Seth wrote:
And the point of denigrating central control and central planning is because it does not and cannot work...
:fp:


Mmmm yeah. Tell that to McDonald's. Or Apple Computer. Or Walmart. Or Exxon. Or any big successful enterprise you've ever heard of...

Private Enterprise=Central Control.
:fp2:

How has France been working since Napoleon, if not since Louis XIV?
Central control, and private enterprise has worked pretty well too.

CEOs come and go. Some are more accountable to shareholders than others...

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Re: Saving the Internet from the NSA

Post by Svartalf » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:17 pm

CEO accountable? that's news to me... golden farewells still cap their careers, even when they go out in disgrace.
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Re: Saving the Internet from the NSA

Post by JimC » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:27 pm

Svartalf wrote:CEO accountable? that's news to me... golden farewells still cap their careers, even when they go out in disgrace.
Golden showers for some of 'em...
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Re: Saving the Internet from the NSA

Post by piscator » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:36 am

So the next time you hear a Libertarian (hardrock Conservative) businessman piss and moan about "Government interference" in his business, you'll know he's bitching about some perceived erosion of his central planning and control.

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Re: Saving the Internet from the NSA

Post by Seth » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:06 am

Blind groper wrote:Seth

There is a very true saying : "You never had it so good."

This is true. Western society enjoys a level of wealth, health, long life, and interest in life that has never existed anywhere or anywhen else.

So if you wish to change the system that has delivered so incredibly well on what we need, you had better have something pretty damn special.
I'm just objecting to the negative changes that have taken place since 1912 with the Progressive movement. We're not better off because of Progressivism, we're far, far worse off and the US, along with the rest of the planet is facing imminent global economic collapse precisely because of the policies of Progressivism, Liberalism and Marxism that have the US something like 17 TRILLION dollars in debt and going up by billions per day.

It's a simple fact of economics that you can't spend more than you take in forever. At some point the chickens are going to come home to roost and that will be a Progressive catastrophe of unimaginable magnitude.

Alexander Tytler described it two hundred years ago:
A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.
Just because you enjoy getting goodies from the labor of others, and from borrowing against your grandchildren's futures doesn't mean all that "wealth, health, long life, and interest in life" you enjoy is either justly yours or a perpetual condition. It's not. It's all going to collapse because of people like you who think that the government is the source of all good and that it can tax and spend it's way to economic security. Just t'aint so I'm afraid. Your grandchildren will likely be living much as your ancestors did a thousand years ago because selfish Marxist pricks wanted something for nothing.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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