Dawkins: At War With The Feminists?

[charlou]

I agree with Gallstones

Details, please.

What WOULD you do if a man propositioned you in an elevator at 4am?

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 30#p827730

Intriguing .. I've had similar fantasies ... only involving more public, yet tightly enclosed situations ... school assembly ... peak hour trains ... disturbed concerts ..

[stripes4]

Haha. Charlou. It must be something about fantasising about having the 'decision' taken out of your hands. I wonder?? In REALITY, I think I would feel a bit nervous and vulnerable to be propositioned in a lift. In a bar, a club, a supermarket, or any other area with other people milling about, bring it on!!! but for me, if a man made the decision to proposition me in a confined space and with no one else in view, at best I would think him an insensitive dick head.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

if a man made the decision to proposition me in a confined space and with no one else in view, at best I would think him an insensitive dick head.

Exactly.

How many women here would not share Stripes' opinion?

How many men here would be so crass as to ask a stranger back to their hotel room for coffee in a lift at 4am?

[hadespussercats]

Haha. Charlou. It must be something about fantasising about having the 'decision' taken out of your hands. I wonder?? In REALITY, I think I would feel a bit nervous and vulnerable to be propositioned in a lift. In a bar, a club, a supermarket, or any other area with other people milling about, bring it on!!! but for me, if a man made the decision to proposition me in a confined space and with no one else in view, at best I would think him an insensitive dick head.

Context is important. He hadn't just seen Watson in the elevator-- he'd been listening to her talk about sexualization/objectification of women, for hours. How is it not clueless of him to ignore everything she said? If you want a woman not to feel objectified, paying attention to her clearly stated likes and dislikes is a good place to start.

And how is it not clueless of him not to realize that asking someone back to your place has a different effect when it's four in the morning and you're alone in an elevator, versus maybe asking her back at the bar, before she decided to leave? Or at any other point in the long day he'd spent as part of her audience?

Just saw you there, XC-- and...word.

[charlou]

Fark, if I put my hand up am I a sexualising misogynist? Perhaps I have a wife and beat her, too.

[stripes4]

It's not all about wailing 'all men are rapists' etc. That would be ridiculous, but I would question the DECISION to ask in a lift, when a more relaxed approach would be to approach someone with other people about. It would be this decision itself that I would find suspect and altogether unpleasant, whether the guy is a lunatic rapist or just a thicko. Both I find highly offensive. Thanks for getting it, XC. Women aren't overreacting and all running around screaming, when they are just expecting a bit of common sense, sensitivity and old fashioned, dare I say it, respect for their feelings.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Fark, if I put my hand up am I a sexualising misogynist? Perhaps I have a wife and beat her, too.

Stop oppressing me!

[charlou]

I'm a woman whose view of the situation varies from some others I've read. Most of my thoughts on it have been posted at RatSkep.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I'm a woman whose view of the situation varies from some others I've read. Most of my thoughts on it have been posted at RatSkep.

So, had it been you in the lift, you wouldn't have thought him an insensitive dickhead? Or you wouldn't be disturbed by his behaviour?

Either way, fair enough, your personal view is as valid as anyone's. You seem to be in a small minority of women however. I am not claiming that you are wrong, merely that I would reasonably expect such behaviour to creep out most women and so, personally, I would not act similarly for that reason. If I ever were to drunkenly proposition a minor celebrity in a hotel lift, I would consider myself a dickhead for not appreciating that fact.

[charlou]

I don't agree that asking a woman for coffee is sexualising her.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I don't agree that asking a woman for coffee is sexualising her.

I just had the image of a man approaching her in a lift and asking her to make him a cup of coffee - now that would be sexist!

[Audley Strange]

Hmm but it could be sexist. Perhaps the guy said "Hey why don't you come back to my room and make me some coffee?"

edit- Damn your eyes Chegwin!

[charlou]

I don't agree that asking a woman for coffee is sexualising her.

I just had the image of a man approaching her in a lift and asking her to make him a cup of coffee - now that would be sexist!

A guy with a sense of irreverential humour .. what's not to like?

[Audley Strange]

Another thought occurs. Given that Dawkins went on a rant about this makes me wonder whether it was he that was the bloke in the elevator, pissed off at getting turned down and then further humilated by her anecdote.

[Lozzer]

I met Rebecca Watson when she gave a skeptics in the pub talk in Nottingham. Nice girl (and a very good talk) but she does tend to paint everything with a feminist paintbrush a little much for my liking.

I'm totally going to the next one if she's there.

'Heyyy Rebecca, fancy coming to my room for a coffee, if you catch my drift?'

10 minutes later:

*casually drink coffee with her. We have a conversation*