Why us furrrners get upset at some US foreign policy etc

[Ian]

We do, and boo hoo. The Stasi we are not and never will be.

[Svartalf]

You start looking like it, though

[Ian]

[MiM]

The Stasi never even dreamt of having the technological means you (and others) are now using on a routine basis. And that is kind of the core of it. What you could do is far too formidable. Public trust has to be earned and maintained, inside your country, and among your friends. Lying and cheating is a very very bad way to do that.

[Ian]

The Stasi never even dreamt of having the technological means you (and others) are now using on a routine basis. And that is kind of the core of it. What you could doo is far too formidable. Public trust has to be maintained, inside your country, and among your friends. Lying and cheating is a very very bad way to do that.

It's a good academic argument and I sympathize with it. But I also think it's an overreaction based on slippery slope logic, not to mention out of context considering how much more oversight US agencies have compared to our foreign counterparts, including other democracies.

The liberty vs security argument will always be there, but I prefer to see a reasonable balance rather than ALWAYS leaning towards the liberty side. I think the balance today is still reasonable. And as someone who has personally calculated the blast radius between his office desk and the White House, I'm not open to too much compromise on this.

[Svartalf]

Slippery slope? Fuggit, somebody has slipped a good way down it already.
There are things you don't do to your friends, and limits have been stretched far beyond breaking points.

[Ian]

I consider that very naive. And past a breaking point? If that were so, why are so many countries NOT snubbing the US as far as the Snowden asylum thing goes? Have we intimidated all of them in secret - and that's one secret that didn't leak?

Jeez, if you guys think the US security agencies are out of line today and trending worse, I would suggest a history lesson.

[Svartalf]

Yes it's naive... technically, I know that SOME spying on your allies is bound to happen... but the nature and extent of what has happened just goes beyond the tolerable, especially given certain assurances we had been given as to the actual objectives of the surveillance... Some spying is part of the game, getting bald faced lies from somebody who claims to be a friend is something else.

[Ian]

Something to keep in mind: all threat analysis can be boiled down to two factors: Capabilities and Intentions. Germany's intelligence services today have technical capabilities that the Gestapo could scarcely have dreamt of. Does that make them worse than the Gestapo? No, which is why trying to make a point about what some organization COULD do is meaningless.

[laklak]

The liberty vs security argument will always be there, but I prefer to see a reasonable balance rather than ALWAYS leaning towards the liberty side. I think the balance today is still reasonable. And as someone who has personally calculated the blast radius between his office desk and the White House, I'm not open to too much compromise on this.

When you couple the revelations about domestic spying with the push to disarm the population, the use of Federal agencies against private individuals for partisan ends, the absolutely insane expansion of Federal power and regulatory reach, "free speech zones", the Patriot Act, Guantanamo, drones in U.S. skies, the administrations refusal until forced to admit they lack the constitutional authority to murder American citizens on American soil without charge or trial, reports of massive ammunition and military surplus purchases by Homeland Security, hell just the fucking name "Homeland Security" - I could go on but I think the point is made - can you honestly blame people for not trusting the government? For wondering when the gloves come off and the jackboots go on? I'm sorry Ian, but "you don't know what's going on out there" simply isn't a sufficient excuse for gutting the Constitution.

[Warren Dew]

The Stasi never even dreamt of having the technological means you (and others) are now using on a routine basis. And that is kind of the core of it. What you could do is far too formidable. Public trust has to be earned and maintained, inside your country, and among your friends. Lying and cheating is a very very bad way to do that.

If the intent is to rule through fear, rather than through consent of the governed, public trust doesn't matter.

[Seth]

This is why some of us get upset at the US, even though we aren't citizens of it. The US has a disproportionate affect on foreign countries sovereignty. When the US sneezes, the rest of us cower in fear (or something like that...)

Er, they all know on which side of the bread their butter is. We just asked nicely, and our friends decided to do what in their sovereign judgment was the prudent thing to do that's in the best interests of their nation.

Dunno why you would think that the US is obliged to continue to be nice to any nation that would harbor a traitor like him.

I'd go as far as to say that any country that gives Snowden asylum is committing an act of war against the United States, given what he knows about our national security infrastructure, and that if we can locate him we should stuff a Hellfire missile up his ass, no matter where he is.

Gotta love the Obama drone program...it's MADE for this sort of thing.

I appreciate this post, Seth. From all I can see, this is a raw and honest answer to rEv's OP, with no spin...

This, however, is little by little the increasing picture of the US that many in the world (including former allies) have today. And I suspect that many US citizens simply do not understand the increasing fear and distrust of their country by people far removed from Russia, China or islamic jihadists...

Well, get with the program and be our friends and you won't have to worry about it. I have no trouble with the US defending it's interests at home or abroad. Every country on earth does so, some more effectively, some less.

But the fact is that the US, for all its warts, is still the bastion of freedom and liberty and if exporting our system is what it takes to achieve global peace, then I'm all for it. After all, nobody's come up with a better system of government, and many have come up with much worse forms of government under which the people suffer indignity and death en masse.

I'd be interested to hear just exactly (besides perhaps the gun issue) is so inherently evil or frightening about the American way of life and political beliefs that would make a right-minded person interested in individual liberty, national stability and international peace afraid of the US?

I KNOW everyone has a lot to fear from Marxism and it's intermediate stage of Socialism, and I know exactly why we should fear and fight Marxism in all its guises. It has never worked, ever, in the history of mankind, and it's produced more evil and genocidal death than any other political system that has ever existed, bar none.

But what exactly has the US form of government done that leads to such fear?

Is the rest of the planet really that afraid of liberty?

If so, unlike the Soviet Union and other Marxist states, why does the US have to build a fence to keep people OUT?

[Seth]

The liberty vs security argument will always be there, but I prefer to see a reasonable balance rather than ALWAYS leaning towards the liberty side. I think the balance today is still reasonable. And as someone who has personally calculated the blast radius between his office desk and the White House, I'm not open to too much compromise on this.

When you couple the revelations about domestic spying with the push to disarm the population, the use of Federal agencies against private individuals for partisan ends, the absolutely insane expansion of Federal power and regulatory reach, "free speech zones", the Patriot Act, Guantanamo, drones in U.S. skies, the administrations refusal until forced to admit they lack the constitutional authority to murder American citizens on American soil without charge or trial, reports of massive ammunition and military surplus purchases by Homeland Security, hell just the fucking name "Homeland Security" - I could go on but I think the point is made - can you honestly blame people for not trusting the government? For wondering when the gloves come off and the jackboots go on? I'm sorry Ian, but "you don't know what's going on out there" simply isn't a sufficient excuse for gutting the Constitution.

Right on the mark laklak. It's no ONE thing, it's all of it together that causes patriots to fear for out future as a nation. We believed Obama when he said he is attempting a "fundamental transformation" of the US. The difference between patriots and the seething proletarian masses is that we understand what his ultimate goal for this transformation is.

Pure and simple it's Marxist State Socialism that Obama is after, and has always been after, as demonstrated by his upbringing, his political associations throughout his whole life, and his actions in office.

People don't believe it only because he hasn't raised the hammer and sickle over the White House...yet. But he's no dummy, he's a dedicated and highly intelligent Marxist Progressive and he knows that Marxism cannot be imposed overnight, so he's taking his opportunity to set in place those mechanisms that will forward the Marxist agenda for the US in subsequent administrations. Obamacare is his greatest victory so far and it's a substantial step towards State Socialism, particularly given who he has tasked with enforcing it...The IRS. Once everyone's health records, along with every other type of record the government manages to accumulate, are in the hands of the government and particularly the IRS, you will see a massive increase in what we have recently discovered (and what those of us who were paying attention knew all along) regarding the political use of the IRS as a tool of terror and despotism.

We're not stupid, and we're not wrong. You just don't want to actually open your eyes and see the self-evident truths because Obama carefully panders to your favorite interests while he prepares to shove a dagger into your kidneys from behind. Very Communist Chinese that...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Slippery slope? Fuggit, somebody has slipped a good way down it already.
There are things you don't do to your friends, and limits have been stretched far beyond breaking points.

"Friends"?

[Ian]

Slippery slope? Fuggit, somebody has slipped a good way down it already.
There are things you don't do to your friends, and limits have been stretched far beyond breaking points.

"Friends"?

Yeah, the French intelligence services would never, ever station any agents in Washington DC. Nosiree.