Can the US get any shittier?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

After helping the hex-wife research psycho killers for a few years I'd want to look at each case on merits.

[pErvinalia]

Arbitrary limits are arbitrary. The idea of "childhood" is really rather new.

Surely not at 12, though? A 12 year old simply doesn't have the reasoning abilities of an adult. Trying them as an adult is just wrong, no matter how heinous their crimes.

I love absolute statements.

So you think 12 year olds have adult reasoning abilities? Like Warren you are apparently unaware that frontal lobes don't fully develop till late teens to mid twenties.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Arbitrary limits are arbitrary. The idea of "childhood" is really rather new.

Surely not at 12, though? A 12 year old simply doesn't have the reasoning abilities of an adult. Trying them as an adult is just wrong, no matter how heinous their crimes.

I love absolute statements.

So you think 12 year olds have adult reasoning abilities? Like Warren you are apparently unaware that frontal lobes don't fully develop till late teens to mid twenties.

What I believe is that there are monsters out there and age is not always a factor.

[Rum]

Sentencing is a bit of an art rather than a science. The so called 'tariff' system used by Judges (and magistrates for less serious crimes) provide guidelines and there are usually upper and lower limits about what they can impose. The 'age of criminal responsibility' is a factor in most countries too - and the UK has one of the lowest sadly.

The thing about these extreme cases is exactly that - they are extreme and do not help generally speaking in thinking about the average young offender. These guidelines include the ability to make an example of an offender as well as take into account the public interest factor. The most horrendous crimes are not necessary punished because the judge has gone bonkers, is angry or being irrational. The punishment will be based on the factors mentioned above.

How do I know this? I worked for two (horrible) years in the UK's youth criminal justice system (like Probation only for kids) and saw it in action first hand.

[pErvinalia]

Arbitrary limits are arbitrary. The idea of "childhood" is really rather new.

Surely not at 12, though? A 12 year old simply doesn't have the reasoning abilities of an adult. Trying them as an adult is just wrong, no matter how heinous their crimes.

I love absolute statements.

So you think 12 year olds have adult reasoning abilities? Like Warren you are apparently unaware that frontal lobes don't fully develop till late teens to mid twenties.

What I believe is that there are monsters out there and age is not always a factor.

Sounds like religious woo to me. Believe what you want. I'll let science dictate my beliefs.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I mentioned the source of my doubts above. That as you will.

[JimC]

Arbitrary limits are arbitrary. The idea of "childhood" is really rather new.

Surely not at 12, though? A 12 year old simply doesn't have the reasoning abilities of an adult. Trying them as an adult is just wrong, no matter how heinous their crimes.

I love absolute statements.

So you think 12 year olds have adult reasoning abilities? Like Warren you are apparently unaware that frontal lobes don't fully develop till late teens to mid twenties.

What I believe is that there are monsters out there and age is not always a factor.

At 12, they may be potential monsters, but early jail may simply become a polishing school for darker skills...

And at 12, potential monsters still have a chance to find another pathway. Later, that may well be impossible, I agree...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Fuck "potential", I'm talking about kids who killed more than three other children, Jim. There were at least seven such cases in Kim's files.

[JimC]

Fuck "potential", I'm talking about kids who killed more than three other children, Jim. There were at least seven such cases in Kim's files.

In those cases, it is more rational to consider serious mental illness, rather than the emotive term "monster", by which I presume you mean an irredeemably evil child who will almost certainly murder others. More of a term from a thriller than a worthwhile descriptor.

In cases where it is clear that the child will be a danger to others in the future, other avenues rather than jail exist, which involve treatment... Children are vastly more plastic than a hardened killer in their 20s, where successful redemption may be unrealistic.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Call 'em what you will, I'd shoot the little cocksuckers out of hand.

[mistermack]

The legal system ALREADY recognises that 12 year olds are not responsible adults.
You can't get a gun licence till you are 18. You can't buy from a gun shop till you are 21. Why is this? Because the state recognises that 12 year olds are not responsible enough to be in charge of a gun.

Even the gun loonies on here must surely agree that they would not give a loaded gun to a 12 year old, without some pretty intensive training and instruction, under strictly controlled conditions. And sane people just wouldn't give them a loaded gun at all. Ever.

So the law recognises that they are not responsible enough to posess a gun, but they are then suddenly responsible adults, if they pull the trigger.

I remember when I was about 12, my mate found a tin of live bullets in a dumped car.
We did everything we could to make one go off, including putting it in a vice, and hammering a nail into the flat end.
Luckily, we failed. I wouldn't dream of doing that sort of thing as an adult.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I wouldn't dream of doing that sort of thing as an adult.

Adam and Jamie would be proud of you.

[pErvinalia]

The legal system ALREADY recognises that 12 year olds are not responsible adults.
You can't get a gun licence till you are 18. You can't buy from a gun shop till you are 21. Why is this? Because the state recognises that 12 year olds are not responsible enough to be in charge of a gun.

Even the gun loonies on here must surely agree that they would not give a loaded gun to a 12 year old, without some pretty intensive training and instruction, under strictly controlled conditions. And sane people just wouldn't give them a loaded gun at all. Ever.

So the law recognises that they are not responsible enough to posess a gun, but they are then suddenly responsible adults, if they pull the trigger.

I remember when I was about 12, my mate found a tin of live bullets in a dumped car.
We did everything we could to make one go off, including putting it in a vice, and hammering a nail into the flat end.
Luckily, we failed. I wouldn't dream of doing that sort of thing as an adult.

Fuck

I found my dad's ammo for his .22 when I was about 10, and even I had enough sense then not to stick them in the gun and do something stupid.

[MrJonno]

Fuck "potential", I'm talking about kids who killed more than three other children, Jim. There were at least seven such cases in Kim's files.

In those cases, it is more rational to consider serious mental illness, rather than the emotive term "monster", by which I presume you mean an irredeemably evil child who will almost certainly murder others. More of a term from a thriller than a worthwhile descriptor.

In cases where it is clear that the child will be a danger to others in the future, other avenues rather than jail exist, which involve treatment... Children are vastly more plastic than a hardened killer in their 20s, where successful redemption may be unrealistic.

Exactly secure treatment (indefinitely if needed) is a better option than imprisoning 12 years olds. If society thinks it can't reform 10-12 years olds it might as well give up on the entire concept prison and just shoot them

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Agreed. Just shoot them.