You guys and your guns...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Several "yeah buts" there.

[Blind groper]

In relation to the last two posts.
Obviously police and the military would have specific exemptions from hand gun laws.
For target shooting, if the aim to get the homicide rate down using a measure other than a total ban, then I assume we are all practical people. The Oz situation could be adopted.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

In relation to the last two posts.
Obviously police and the military would have specific exemptions from hand gun laws.
For target shooting, if the aim to get the homicide rate down using a measure other than a total ban, then I assume we are all practical people. The Oz situation could be adopted.

I carried a 1911A for over two years, and the only things I shot with it was not two-legged. As a MG operator I had to have a weapon at hand in case people got under the guns.

Same way when I was in another jungle later. I kept an handgun close by at all times. It's a good backup to a long gun and I would never go into a hunting situation without both.

[Warren Dew]

I detect 3 strands in the American love affair with guns:

One strand is simply the enjoyment of guns themselves; firing them, hunting with them, learning about them, even cleaning them. I share this; when I was a young bloke, I owned a few rifles, and loved hunting rabbits on the farm. I can still remember they smell of gun oil myself... So, I get this strand, and at least a reasonable number of folk around the world would too...

The second is the whole self-defence thing; the whole "criminals better walk softly around me, coz I'm a righteous citizen packing serious heat". This strand is totally surreal to me, although I understand that, in a society with a vast number of hand-guns in circulation, the need for one of your own becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy... I suspect that "alea jacta" applies here...

The third strand is the combined historical/libertarian thing. Citizen colonists fought off colonial oppression using their own weapons, and that legacy has become a truly sacred message to many. Socialism, the new world order and those pesky black helicopters can only be held at bay by that magic amulet, the gun, with the NRA as high priests...

Oh well, one out of three is better than nothing, I suppose...

Tough to have a rational discussion when you dismiss essentially legitimate viewpoints "surreal" or "magic" before even considering them with an open mind.

[JimC]

I detect 3 strands in the American love affair with guns:

One strand is simply the enjoyment of guns themselves; firing them, hunting with them, learning about them, even cleaning them. I share this; when I was a young bloke, I owned a few rifles, and loved hunting rabbits on the farm. I can still remember they smell of gun oil myself... So, I get this strand, and at least a reasonable number of folk around the world would too...

The second is the whole self-defence thing; the whole "criminals better walk softly around me, coz I'm a righteous citizen packing serious heat". This strand is totally surreal to me, although I understand that, in a society with a vast number of hand-guns in circulation, the need for one of your own becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy... I suspect that "alea jacta" applies here...

The third strand is the combined historical/libertarian thing. Citizen colonists fought off colonial oppression using their own weapons, and that legacy has become a truly sacred message to many. Socialism, the new world order and those pesky black helicopters can only be held at bay by that magic amulet, the gun, with the NRA as high priests...

Oh well, one out of three is better than nothing, I suppose...

Tough to have a rational discussion when you dismiss essentially legitimate viewpoints "surreal" or "magic" before even considering them with an open mind.

I think you miss my point. I am simply giving you my take on how some aspects of the American connection with guns appears from the outside. I think you'll find that many people from outside the US would feel a similar bemusement.

I tried to show that such a reaction doesn't have to spring from unfamiliarity with, or dislike of guns per se. Naturally, I concede that it is of course up to you folk to decide on whether you want to continue with your relatively free approach to hand-guns and assault rifles. Given the sheer number of guns in circulation, there is probably no way major change could occur in any case...

(And, in case you didn't recognise it, the "surreal" and "magic" tags were somewhat tongue in cheek...)

[mistermack]

One might note that shooting is included in several Olympic sports. One might also note that the British pistol teams aren't even allowed to possess their Olympic target pistols in the UK, and they have to go out of the country to practice.

Good. Let the pathetic wankers go out and stay out.
You might as well have wanking as an olympic sport.

[MrJonno]

One might note that shooting is included in several Olympic sports. One might also note that the British pistol teams aren't even allowed to possess their Olympic target pistols in the UK, and they have to go out of the country to practice.

Good. Let the pathetic wankers go out and stay out.
You might as well have wanking as an olympic sport.

That isnt such a bad idea, sure it would get plenty of viewers

[klr]

I detect 3 strands in the American love affair with guns:

One strand is simply the enjoyment of guns themselves; firing them, hunting with them, learning about them, even cleaning them. I share this; when I was a young bloke, I owned a few rifles, and loved hunting rabbits on the farm. I can still remember they smell of gun oil myself... So, I get this strand, and at least a reasonable number of folk around the world would too...

The second is the whole self-defence thing; the whole "criminals better walk softly around me, coz I'm a righteous citizen packing serious heat". This strand is totally surreal to me, although I understand that, in a society with a vast number of hand-guns in circulation, the need for one of your own becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy... I suspect that "alea jacta" applies here...

The third strand is the combined historical/libertarian thing. Citizen colonists fought off colonial oppression using their own weapons, and that legacy has become a truly sacred message to many. Socialism, the new world order and those pesky black helicopters can only be held at bay by that magic amulet, the gun, with the NRA as high priests...

Oh well, one out of three is better than nothing, I suppose...

The best one post-analysis on this issue I can recall reading.

Probably because I find myself in complete agreement with it ...

[Coito ergo sum]

I detect 3 strands in the American love affair with guns:

One strand is simply the enjoyment of guns themselves; firing them, hunting with them, learning about them, even cleaning them. I share this; when I was a young bloke, I owned a few rifles, and loved hunting rabbits on the farm. I can still remember they smell of gun oil myself... So, I get this strand, and at least a reasonable number of folk around the world would too...

The second is the whole self-defence thing; the whole "criminals better walk softly around me, coz I'm a righteous citizen packing serious heat". This strand is totally surreal to me, although I understand that, in a society with a vast number of hand-guns in circulation, the need for one of your own becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy... I suspect that "alea jacta" applies here...

The third strand is the combined historical/libertarian thing. Citizen colonists fought off colonial oppression using their own weapons, and that legacy has become a truly sacred message to many. Socialism, the new world order and those pesky black helicopters can only be held at bay by that magic amulet, the gun, with the NRA as high priests...

Oh well, one out of three is better than nothing, I suppose...

The first thing you mentioned is probably just the normal human reaction to reminisce about the old days. But, guns can definitely be fun -- like target practice. And, they can certainly be useful, like hunting for food (which is not fundamentally different than buying a steak at the store).

The second is the myth that non-Americans have about the US. It's the myth that so many people are running around with guns taht we are sort of almost compelled to have our own to fend off the bad guys. This is just what I said, a myth. Most people don't have guns, and of those that do, the overwhelming vast majority of people aren't shooting them at people or threatening people with them. Gun crime is predominently in inner cities and among gangs.

Your third strand makes sense until you get into the whole black helicopter conspiracy thing. I will submit that the traditional American culture was one of a vision of self-reliance and protecting oneself and one's family. The American culture is based on the premises of "Life, Liberty and Property" whereas the English and Canadian culture is more along the lines of "Peace, Order and Good Government." LLP vs. POGG. Your first sentence of the third thread makes a bit of sense, but you ruin it with the second sentence, which is basically a way to sully or demean the idea of historical/liberal attitudes toward self-protection and arms.

[Coito ergo sum]

In relation to the last two posts.
Obviously police and the military would have specific exemptions from hand gun laws.
For target shooting, if the aim to get the homicide rate down using a measure other than a total ban, then I assume we are all practical people. The Oz situation could be adopted.

The gun homicide rate, you mean? That's not the same as the "homicide" rate, which in the US is not too bad overall, and going down.

If it's "homicide" rates that folks are worried about, there are plenty of other countries much worse off than the US in that regard, so non-Americans might want to focus their attentions on those places first. Our homicide rate overall is about the same as the homicide rate for Europe as a whole, and as with Europe, our high homicide areas are scattered in different areas -- some of our states have extraordinarily low homicide rates, and some have higher rates. And, the rates have absolutely no correlation to gun ownership. None.

[MrJonno]

US murder rates are 3-5 times that of any other 1st world , they are around the same as some 2nd world countries and better than others

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

Not sure what the method of killing has got to do with, are murder weapons statistics even collected accurately

Reminds me of that dodgy made up statistics where you are more likely to burguled while you are in your house in the UK. Like in the history of crime that information has ever been collected by anyone anywhere

[MrJonno]

Your third strand makes sense until you get into the whole black helicopter conspiracy thing. I will submit that the traditional American culture was one of a vision of self-reliance and protecting oneself and one's family. The American culture is based on the premises of "Life, Liberty and Property" whereas the English and Canadian culture is more along the lines of "Peace, Order and Good Government." LLP vs. POGG. Your first sentence of the third thread makes a bit of sense, but you ruin it with the second sentence, which is basically a way to sully or demean the idea of historical/liberal attitudes toward self-protection and arms.

Its very simply if government fails (as in government as a whole as opposed to an individual one) most of us will die whether American , Canadian or British.
Sure some one in a bunker with 6 months food supply might last for a bit but most of us live in million + cities that isnt the case

If you get a 'tyranical' government you may still die but no government = death for 99% of the human race

[Coito ergo sum]

US murder rates are 3-5 times that of any other 1st world , they are around the same as some 2nd world countries and better than others

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

Not sure what the method of killing has got to do with, are murder weapons statistics even collected accurately

Reminds me of that dodgy made up statistics where you are more likely to burguled while you are in your house in the UK. Like in the history of crime that information has ever been collected by anyone anywhere

The method of killing has nothing to do with it, except to the extent that gun homicides are only a subset of homicides.

Moreover, there is no correlation in the US between the states that have high homicide rates and lax gun laws. Many states in the US have homicide rates as low as the lower western European countries. Some have higher. Same in Europe -- some European countries are much higher than the US, like Russia, Ukraine, Moldova, Estonia, etc. And, the US rate has been consistently dropping...

Mexico has an intentional homicide rate of 18 per 100,000, almost 4 times that of the US, and they have much tighter gun laws.

[Coito ergo sum]

Your third strand makes sense until you get into the whole black helicopter conspiracy thing. I will submit that the traditional American culture was one of a vision of self-reliance and protecting oneself and one's family. The American culture is based on the premises of "Life, Liberty and Property" whereas the English and Canadian culture is more along the lines of "Peace, Order and Good Government." LLP vs. POGG. Your first sentence of the third thread makes a bit of sense, but you ruin it with the second sentence, which is basically a way to sully or demean the idea of historical/liberal attitudes toward self-protection and arms.

Its very simply if government fails (as in government as a whole as opposed to an individual one) most of us will die whether American , Canadian or British.
Sure some one in a bunker with 6 months food supply might last for a bit but most of us live in million + cities that isnt the case

If you get a 'tyranical' government you may still die but no government = death for 99% of the human race

Yeah, but that's the thing. Having a culture that values self-reliance and self-protection has fuck-all to do with conspiracy theories of defending yourself against tyrannical governments. There is a distinction there that some folks seem to miss by a mile.

[JimC]

One might note that shooting is included in several Olympic sports. One might also note that the British pistol teams aren't even allowed to possess their Olympic target pistols in the UK, and they have to go out of the country to practice.

Good. Let the pathetic wankers go out and stay out.
You might as well have wanking as an olympic sport.

This is just a silly anti-gun post, which does not help a rational analysis at all...