Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

[Kristie]

You can't really have much of a discussion between two groups of people where

Group 1 thinks : anyone who carries a handgun or other weapon without an extremely good reason should be locked up for many years (or shot dead by the police)
Group 2 thinks : carrying an gun is an inalienable right

I'm in group 1 as I suspect most people outside the US are and a majority (but probably shrinking) number of people in the US are in group 2

There really isn't room for a middle ground, you can be as reasonable as you want and listen to the other side but this isn't like arguing over whether the legal drinking age should be 18 or 21 so lets go for 19.5

A rather absolutist division - there is always room for a middle ground.

For example, a move from an absolutist view of Group 2 might apply to many Americans. They may say that owning guns is generally a right, but may wish for more restrictions than, say, Gallstones. These might include:
* more powerful background/mental health checks, removing the right to own guns from unstable people
* strict laws on the safe storage of all guns (Seth showed in an earlier thread a rather clever locking device for a gun that can be accessed quickly by the owner, but kids can't grab)
* no concealed carry of handguns
* limits to magazine capacity on rifles
Now I know that some on this thread would fight even these restrictions, but that's not the point. I list them to show that attitudes to guns do not have to be all or nothing.

In addition the "or shot dead by the police" line was rather absurd, and lacked context. If you mean simply because a policeman notices you have a pistol, that is lunacy. If you mean to prevent you from committing a crime, then that would be an option for any armed police officer.

Jim, this third group you've created seems to fit at least a few if us here. I would be group 3, and I believe Ian would also.

[Azathoth]

* no concealed carry of handguns

Would lead to the exact same argument. If criminals can concealed carry why cant I? They will just rob people without an openly carried gun

[Kristie]

* no concealed carry of handguns

Would lead to the exact same argument. If criminals can concealed carry why cant I? They will just rob people without an openly carried gun

'If criminals can then why can't I?' sounds like the beginning of a temper tantrum.

[Gallstones]

Let's stop pretending the pacifist fantasy is real.
The Second Amendment is a statement of what the government can not do--it is a right not to be infringed.

It is not a permission or something allowed or given. It is assumed by every citizen by default unless and only if that citizen engages in conduct that forfeits that right.

End of.

* more powerful background/mental health checks, removing the right to own guns from unstable people

Those persons adjudicated by due process to be too unstable to trust with firearms are already restrircted and banned from owning firearms.

* strict laws on the safe storage of all guns (Seth showed in an earlier thread a rather clever locking device for a gun that can be accessed quickly by the owner, but kids can't grab)

Most responsible gun owners who care about the security of their arms do lock them up.
You would have us place restrictions and make compromises on the 4th and the 5th now too? This is the kind of shit that gets you no cooperation. I will not cooperate a fraction of an inch with people who think like that.

* no concealed carry of handguns

Absolutely not--No.
There is no reasonable or rational justification for this restriction.

* limits to magazine capacity on rifles

Absolutely not-No.
There is no reasonable or rational justification for this restriction.




I am glad for you Brits and Commonwealthers that you have the kind of restrictions and law that makes you comfortable. We are not you, we don't want to be you. It is an all too vulgar measure of arrogance to presume that we should be made in your image.

No.
Butt out.

[Jason]

Rah rah nationalism! You're letting your enthusiasm get the better of you Gallstones.

[Gallstones]

The wants of many do not outweigh the rights of any.

[Gallstones]

Rah rah nationalism! You're letting your enthusiasm get the better of you Gallstones.

Oh well. Buckle up, because I'm not backing off and I'm not backing down.

What I'm getting is increasingly angry.

[Gallstones]

* no concealed carry of handguns

Would lead to the exact same argument. If criminals can concealed carry why cant I? They will just rob people without an openly carried gun

'If criminals can then why can't I?' sounds like the beginning of a temper tantrum.

Is there any limit to your ignorance and your willingess to flaunt it?

Oh wait, ignorance can be opinion, and opinion is always.......OK.

A little bit of free education---Criminals can't carry weapons hidden or open, they can't have them at all.
Did you sleep through Civics class, perhaps occupied with what color nail polish would best go with your outfit?

[Kristie]

* no concealed carry of handguns

Would lead to the exact same argument. If criminals can concealed carry why cant I? They will just rob people without an openly carried gun

'If criminals can then why can't I?' sounds like the beginning of a temper tantrum.

Is there any limit to your ignorance and your willingess to flaunt it?

Oh wait, ignorance can be opinion, and opinion is always.......OK.

A little bit of free education---Criminals can't carry weapons hidden or open, they can't have them at all.
Did you sleep through Civics class, perhaps occupied with what color nail polish would best go with your outfit?

I'm not sure which words you can't read or can't understand. I'll just assume you quoted me but weren't replying to me. That's the only thing that makes sense seeing as how I was joking about a previous post and not being serious in the least.

[Azathoth]

* no concealed carry of handguns

Would lead to the exact same argument. If criminals can concealed carry why cant I? They will just rob people without an openly carried gun

'If criminals can then why can't I?' sounds like the beginning of a temper tantrum.

Not my intention at all

[JimC]

Gallstones, you totally missed the point of my post. I well know that extremists such as yourself wish their selfish infatuation with owning guns to override any rational restrictions that your own community may wish to impose.

My point was to demonstrate that Mr Johnno's "all or nothing" approach was absurd, and that there will be many Americans seeking a more nuanced view of gun ownership than absolute freedom versus abolition.

You are in an angry little minority.

[Blind groper]

I would also like to point out that laws mean diddly squat when they can be broken.

Banning criminals and the mentally unsound from bearing guns means absolutely nothing when hand guns are sold, without background checks, through any outlet that can call itself 'second-hand'.

This is the real problem. It is the simple fact that anyone, and I mean anyone, with a few dollars, can get a hand gun and ammunition in the USA. End result is 8,000 hand gun homicides each year.

Gallstones calls what we are referring to, a 'pacifist fantasy.' It is no fantasy. In the 24 richest nations on this planet, that 'pacifist fantasy' exists on 23 of them. Only in the USA, with its crazy second amendment, and insane gun culture, is there a major, big time, problem with hand guns and hand gun homicides.

[Kristie]

I would also like to point out that laws mean diddly squat when they can be broken.

Banning criminals and the mentally unsound from bearing guns means absolutely nothing when hand guns are sold, without background checks, through any outlet that can call itself 'second-hand'.

This is the real problem. It is the simple fact that anyone, and I mean anyone, with a few dollars, can get a hand gun and ammunition in the USA. End result is 8,000 hand gun homicides each year.

Gallstones calls what we are referring to, a 'pacifist fantasy.' It is no fantasy. In the 24 richest nations on this planet, that 'pacifist fantasy' exists on 23 of them. Only in the USA, with its crazy second amendment, and insane gun culture, is there a major, big time, problem with hand guns and hand gun homicides.

You must be under the assumption that we Americans want to live in a less violent place, with more murders and more shooting. We'd rather carry guns! Big guns! Big guns that fire lots of bullets within seconds!!! Carrying guns is way more important than living in a safer environment where it's not necessary to carry guns!

[orpheus]

Let's stop pretending the pacifist fantasy is real.
The Second Amendment is a statement of what the government can not do--it is a right not to be infringed.

It is not a permission or something allowed or given. It is assumed by every citizen by default unless and only if that citizen engages in conduct that forfeits that right.

End of.

I've noticed that often when these arguments focus on what people might like to see and their justifications for same, gun nuts are perfectly happy to join in the spirit of things - until they come up against something for which they have no counterargument. You know this point is reached when they try to end the discussion by pulling out the Second Amendment, essentially saying "well, it's not allowed. You can't make me. So there!" (Often this is concluded with a comically "serious" sentence fragment meant to emphasize that they don't want to hear more.)

I am glad for you Brits and Commonwealthers that you have the kind of restrictions and law that makes you comfortable. We are not you, we don't want to be you. It is an all too vulgar measure of arrogance to presume that we should be made in your image. 

No.
Butt out.

What do you mean 'we', Kemosabe?

It is an all too vulgar measure of arrogance to presume that you speak for all Americans.

[MrJonno]

You refuse to acknowledge the most fundamental fact of your utopia--the police show up after the fact. They can only ever "shoot dead" someone threatening them.
It is too late for you and yours by the time LE gets there.

And you refuse to recognise that most people in 1st word live in countries where self defence is as relevant to their lives as winning the lottery. Normal mentally healthy people in a health society do not think about self defence (armed or unarmed)