Guns used for lawful self defense

[Blind groper]

To FBM

That option is also available to criminals in the UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Germany, France, etc. etc. and bloody etc!

It rarely happens. Criminals do not substitute professionally made hand guns with rubbish sawn off long guns. If it happens so rarely outside the USA, why should it happen inside the USA when hand guns are no longer available?

[Tyrannical]

To FBM

On your references to Kleck.

He states that hand guns should not be restricted since that just sends a criminal to buying a long gun. That is fallaceous. The main advantages of a hand gun to a criminal are portability and concealability. A long gun sacrifices these. A criminal who want to take a gun to a crime scene will not take a long gun, because it is too damn obvious. If a person who is known to the police is walking in public carrying a long gun, he is rather likely to be pulled up.

Hand guns are the problem. Half of all US murders and 60% of all suicides. If a hand gun is in the home, it increases risk of spouse killing spouse by 400% and increases the risk of a family member committing suicide by a similar amount. Why is it that the gun enthusiasts here cannot see that as a problem? I have no problem with long guns, and if someone is paranoid about a criminal invading his home, and wants a gun for defense, let him buy a sporting rifle or shotgun. It is actually better for defense, anyway.

With spousal murders (aside from crimes of passion) and suicide, what ever led up to that action was a longtime coming. A sad event of course, but something with a long history of warning signs.

[JimC]

To FBM

That option is also available to criminals in the UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Germany, France, etc. etc. and bloody etc!

It rarely happens. Criminals do not substitute professionally made hand guns with rubbish sawn off long guns. If it happens so rarely outside the USA, why should it happen inside the USA when hand guns are no longer available?

In Oz, a bit more than rarely, but the point remains that they are still not as easy to use or conceal as a proper hand-gun. Criminals in Oz do use guns, but they are much harder to get hold of, and are not going to be easily available to every teenage gangsta wannabe...

[FBM]

To FBM

That option is also available to criminals in the UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Germany, France, etc. etc. and bloody etc!

It rarely happens. Criminals do not substitute professionally made hand guns with rubbish sawn off long guns. If it happens so rarely outside the USA, why should it happen inside the USA when hand guns are no longer available?

It's not common in the US right now because the black market is flooded with unregistered handguns that criminals can acquire regardless of gun control laws. That's one of the main reasons it's important to make sure law-abiding citizens have legal access to guns and training in how to use them.

[JimC]

To FBM

That option is also available to criminals in the UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Germany, France, etc. etc. and bloody etc!

It rarely happens. Criminals do not substitute professionally made hand guns with rubbish sawn off long guns. If it happens so rarely outside the USA, why should it happen inside the USA when hand guns are no longer available?

It's not common in the US right now because the black market is flooded with unregistered handguns that criminals can acquire regardless of gun control laws. That's one of the main reasons it's important to make sure law-abiding citizens have legal access to guns and training in how to use them.

It's also the main reason why most of the rest of the world wants to retain our strict gun-ownership rules. Once a country is flooded with hand-guns, there's no turning back, so you might as well arm everybody...

Reminds me of the Hobbsian "war of all against all..."

[FBM]

Yep. I wish it weren't the case, but that's the way it is. History brought us here, and now we're stuck with it.

[laklak]

I, for one, am glad we're stuck with it. The only way I can get an erection is to rub my pistol.

Bottom line here, as it is in all other gun threads, is never the twain shall meet. We like guns, y'all don't.

[FBM]

I sure don't regret the many, many hours of fun I've spent with guns, but I could do without the crime-related aspects.

[JimC]

I, for one, am glad we're stuck with it. The only way I can get an erection is to rub my pistol.

Bottom line here, as it is in all other gun threads, is never the twain shall meet. We like guns, y'all don't.

I like rifles...

[Blind groper]

I do not like or dislike guns.
As far as I am concerned, they are simply tools - as much an object of love as a crescent spanner. If there is a need for a gun, then I will use it, in the same way I use a hammer or saw. I have used a .22 rifle before today as a pest control tool. I owned a good spear-gun for many years, and used it to put fish onto the table. A sporting rifle used to put venison on the table is fine also. I have no problem with people using guns as tools for legitimate purposes. However, a hand gun does not fit that category. It is designed and built for one purpose only - to kill human beings.

[FBM]

Never seen a hunting pistol? I've killed game with pistols before.

There are also legit sporting venues for handguns, the Olympics being one.

[Blind groper]

To FBM

Certainly. But even a hunting pistol is not as good as a rifle for hunting. To give up the hunting pistol is no sacrifice.
Target shooting with hand guns? If you must, then an air pistol is quite up to the task. You do not need a tool designed for murder.
For those who want to suggest they use hand guns to fend off grizzlies, let me repeat my earlier researched fact that bear spray is safer and more effective.

Hand guns have no legitimate use. They are tools for murder.

[Wumbologist]

I have no problem with people using guns as tools for legitimate purposes. However, a hand gun does not fit that category. It is designed and built for one purpose only - to kill human beings.

A few problems here. Handguns aren't designed for "one purpose only", handguns have legitimate use in hunting, sport and target shooting, and yes, self-defense. Even if we were to take your point at face value and say that handguns are "only" for killing human beings, you're still working under the false assumption that there is no time that killing a person is a legitimate use. In the course of enforcing the law and protecting the public and themselves, police officers sometimes have no choice but to kill a dangerous criminal. That is a legitimate use for a handgun. Similarly, private citizens may come under threat of harm or death from criminal attackers, and if it's a choice between that and shooting their attacker, that is also a perfectly legitimate use for a handgun, no matter how much you would have us believe otherwise. Of course, having said that, most defensive gun uses still occur without a single shot being fired, in which case they have done their job in protecting their owner without killing anyone.

[Wumbologist]

To FBM

Certainly. But even a hunting pistol is not as good as a rifle for hunting. To give up the hunting pistol is no sacrifice.

'
Do you know how rarely pistols suitable for hunting are used in crime?

Target shooting with hand guns? If you must, then an air pistol is quite up to the task. You do not need a tool designed for murder.

Do you know how rarely dedicated target pistols are used in crime?

For those who want to suggest they use hand guns to fend off grizzlies, let me repeat my earlier researched fact that bear spray is safer and more effective.

Rather have a .454 Casull myself. Again, very very rarely used in crime, but imbeciles who don't understand the topic in least would ban them all outright.

Hand guns have no legitimate use. They are tools for murder.

This claim is pure stupidity.

[Blind groper]

In the course of enforcing the law and protecting the public and themselves, police officers sometimes have no choice but to kill a dangerous criminal. That is a legitimate use for a handgun.

Wumbo

One problem with very long threads like this one is that people forget what was said earlier.

I made it clear earlier that I regarded police use of hand guns to be legitimate.

As for self defense, I do not believe that anyone, other than police, should be carrying firearms in public places away from their home or a place where they are hunting animals. In the home, a rifle is a better self defense weapon than a hand gun.

The USA has an awful rate of murders, and half are done with hand guns. It is kind of obvious that the first move to reduce this dreadful statistic is to remove hand guns from the general public. It will take a while to complete that process, even with police assiduously working to get them out of the hands of criminals. But the task that takes the longest is the task that is not begun.